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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Ok, i'm planning on getting an Echostar sat here in Canada. Yeah yeah i know that it isn't officially for sale here, but that's also why it's legal to pirate it. Doesn't make sense, guess it's some kind of a loophole. Fact is that reprogrammed Echostar cards are advertised in the papers :D Anyway... I was wondering if i'll still receive those HD channels even though i'm not in the US? Or does that make no difference?
 

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Hey, you don't have to become a pirate to get HDTV.


Why not subscribe to Bell ExpressVu? They have several channels of HDTV, including one that shows American TV (CBS,ABC,PBS) programming.


The receiver they use is basically the same as the Echostar 6000.
 

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I'm not pirating satellite to get HDTV. I'm doing it so i don't have to pay a small fortune monthly for all the channels i want :D And besides it's legal here so why the hell not, right? :)
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by d!abolic
I'm not pirating satellite to get HDTV. I'm doing it so i don't have to pay a small fortune monthly for all the channels i want :D And besides it's legal here so why the hell not, right? :)
Are you sure it isn't illegal? You ARE stealing something.


What is not illegal, however, is receiving a US signal in Canada. While it is illegal for a US sat company to knowingly let you receive the signals, it is not actually illegal to receive the signals.


Pay your monthly fees through a broker (who has a US address), and they then pay the sat company. This is called "grey market", it is one of those "grey" areas of the law.


Peter
 

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Well technically you can't steal something that you can't buy. And you can't buy for DTV/Dish in Canada so the only way you can get it is to pirate it so it's legal. I know it is for sure because they openly advertise in newspapers and all.
 

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they advertise escort services too:D
 

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Diabolic,


To answer your intended question that you originally asked.

Yes, you can pick up Dish Network HD. You will need to point a dish at 61.5 sat or the 148 sat. depending where you are. I do not know what the signal strength will be like in Canada, but you should be ok with a 18" - 20" dish.

You will get HBO-HD, SHO-HD, PPV-HD, and CBS-HD

Hope this helps.


DWhite
 

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I think the problem here is that different people have different definitions of "pirate." And, are willing to justify receiving a signal without a subscription to the service if they pay a proxy to lie about their location and pay the sub for them.


My understanding is it is illegal to receive a signal if there is a specific law against stealing it. I was under the impression that in Canada, there are no such laws that allow US based DBS companies to sell their service in Canada. Additionally, there are no such laws to make it illegal for a Canada resident to receive US based DBS signals. Therefore I think that there is nothing illegal about a Canadian citizen receiving a US based DBS signal in Canada whether you pay a broker or not. The logic is that you are not pirating anything because I think you have to violate a law to "pirate."

Now it may make you feel guilty and as a matter of personal choice decide to pay a "broker" to illegally and fraudently claim that you are a resident in the US to receive those signals in Canada but the reality is that you would be a conspirator in committing fraud if you hire a broker through which you pay for the signals or subscriptions.

Now you have a moral dilema- Would you rather feel guilty conspiring to commit fraud or would you feel more guilty viewing a signal (legally in Canada) that lands on your property because, technically there is no way to prevent it. It seems to me that the only law you would break is the one that exists in Canada that forbids the US based company from selling you the service and you would be breaking a conspiracy law to lie and decieve the US based DBS company in selling you the signal.

If, in Canada, there is a law that forbids its citizens from viewing a US based DBS signal or there is not a law that forbids fraud and conspiracy to commit fraud then my understanding would need revised.

Furthermore- I believe that the definition of a pirate or committing piracy is an act of stealing a signal that is allowed by law. In my way of thinking, receiving a US based DBS signal in Canada is not piracy, it is just receiving a DBS signal that is within your technical capability to receive it.


This issue has been discussed many times here on this forum on both sides of the fence, ie with Evue and brokers for US based receivers as well. The situation is further complicated because we do have a law that prevents US citizens from decrypting DBS signals. I have not read that in the law it exempts foreign based dbs signals but I could be wrong on this. From what I know, using a broker to conspire to lie to the EVue company about your receiver location is the flip side of this issue plus this extra law about decrypting a dbs signal when you are not legally authorized to do so.


Because this is a grey area, I have decided in my concious that it is illegal to steal the signals if you, receive them without a valid subscription to the company and that using a broker to lie about your location does NOT make it legal. In summary, I do not consider a Canadian receiving US based DBS, "piracy." I do consider hiring a broker conspiring to commit fraud.


I understand that there have not been any real test cases to challenge these grey issues in the courts so therefore it remains a subject that is dictated by your concious.


DISCLAIMER: It has been made apparent to me that there are many on this forum who would take what I have said to mean that those who have decided in their concious that using brokers and hacking dbs signals that I am calling you criminal. I am not. I am simply stating that in an attempt to justify in your concious that you have made a decision based on your personal moral standards and I do not stand in judge of that. Do what makes you feel good. But if you come to a public forum and expect acceptance, think again. You'll get nothing but controversy on any grey area of the law.
 

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It is a very gray area indeed. your right that right now recieving Dish or Directv with pirate cards is not illegal,because the courts have ruled since they are not allowed to sell their product because of the CRTC, but maybe recieving american channels that are broadcasted also in canada is illegal, such as cnn,nbc,cbs,abc,bunch of others because expressvu,starchoice,cable have paid for the right to rebroadcast to the canadian market. Now in my city, winnipeg, we had the top (pirate dealer) around, he was the one that probably hacked the HU card (northsat) and when they busted him, in court instead of the usual argument the directv always losses, this time they tried something different, stating that they owned the intellectual property on the card that was modified by northsat. Northsat just gave in and admitted defeat before the court date and actually became a consultant to DSS. By the way their is an important court date in december, maybe the 14th (can't remember) that may make this all illegal, no more gray market
 

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Here's the scoop the way I understand it.


1. The US sat companies pay to carry the programming the offer. Food Network for instance, sells it's programming to Dish. The contract they have to carry Food Network covers the United States only. If they sold this programming into Canada, they would be in breach of contract and would be sued by Food Network.


2. Even if Dish signed a contract including Canada, they are not authorized by the Federal government to distribute Food Network in Canada.


3. According to a court descision of this year, it is not illegal to sell the receiving hardware for any satellite system. The gist of the verdict was that you cannot prove absolutely that the purchased equipment will be used to receive 'forbidden' signals.


4. Anybody who thinks 'pirate' cards are legal is off their rocker! They most certainly are not. As far as know, breaking any encrypted communication is a federal offense.
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by d!abolic
Well technically you can't steal something that you can't buy. And you can't buy for DTV/Dish in Canada so the only way you can get it is to pirate it so it's legal. I know it is for sure because they openly advertise in newspapers and all.
Technically, you CAN steal something you can't buy.
 

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JohnnyG-


Actually you are partially correct. It swings both ways on DirecTV and, I'm sure also on DishNetwork. In some cases you pay direcTV for channel space for your programming and in other cases DirecTV may pay you. Much of this has to do with whom has the avails (commercial space)within the shows. When the avails are filled by the network, thay pay the carrier. When the carrier will fill the avails they pay you for the programming. I currently do shows that work both ways. I do believe what I describbed is the main determining factor but not limited to this.
 

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I have it from VERY good sources first hand that Canadian DBS service providers here are aware of the what is going on with grey market subscriptions. To begin with, Canada has a huge number of snow birds that migrate to Florida during the winter months and bring their DBS receiver along with them, and have permanent dishes at both locations.


In fact, at one of the DBS companies here, managers have been known to reactivate subscriptions knowing that the customer was most likely living in the USA and that his system was there too. Hey, every subscription counts these days. Don't think there are no Canadians subscribing to Amerian DBS using relatives' addresses or borker services. It swings both ways. The former president of one Cdn. DBS company had both DirecTV and DishNetwork at his house, along with the competitors satellite system and cable too. Have to monitor the industry and the competition right?


If the customer is going to keep paying for their monthly service (rather than stealing the service outright with a black market card - D!abolic you listening here), then from a business point, it makes sense to me. The customer has after all provided the Canadian DBS company with a completely valid Canadian address, etc, etc. And the customer IS paying his monthly subscription. Few people know this, its costs both Expressvu and StarChoice approx. $750 per new customers (the equipment is given away WAY below cost just to make it up later on the monthly subscription).


Expressvu in particular is very concerned about their system being hacked - going so far as to hire retired RCMP officers to investigate this area. Watch for this ball to drop soon.


Regarding `that' Canadian court case; its set for Dec. 04/01 from the Supreme Court of Canada. This should pretty much decide the fate of American DBS in Canada once and for all. The side trying to bring an end to American DBS's in Canada has even gone so far as to invite DirecTV rep's to attend and testify for them - and they are coming. BUT, the Supreme Court of Canada has tended to rule for the little people and this case is split straight down the middle 50/50, take your pick!


Finally to D!abolic, support HD and the programmers like Marc C. who invest $milllions! My monthly (fortune) subscription to HBO, including HBO HD, via DirecTV is just $18 Canadian per month, and I get HD Net too! IMHO, money WELL spent!
 
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