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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Firstly read this http://www.videophile.info/Guide_EE/Page_01.htm then when you are happy with what edge ehancement looks like, read on.


I have seen many dvd reviews which measure dvd picture quality by taking a screen shot of it with a PC dvd player and enlarging so you can see artifacts in the picture such as edge enhancement. The problem with this is that depending on what filtering algorithm was used to enlarge (scale) the image, it could introduce extra artifacts that arn't part of the original image.


For this demonstration I have used nvdvd 2.2 and photoshop 6.


Here is a piece cropped from the Avia sharpness test, taken at source resolution:-

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/cyberso.../sharpness.jpg


Here is the image englarged, using no filtering (nearest neighbour in photoshop):-

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/cyberso...ss_nearest.jpg


Here is the image enlarged, using Bi-linear filtering:-

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/cyberso...s_bilinear.jpg


Here is the image enlarged, using Bi-cubic filtering. You can see slight halos beside the black lines and text. It looks sharper from a distance but if you look close it has that edge enhancement that plagues so many dvds:-

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/cyberso...ss_bicubic.jpg


If a dvd review used bicubic filtering to zoom in on the image, it could make edge enhancement look worse or make a dvd that has no edge enhancement look like it has been enhanced.


It is interesting to know that some video cards add edge enhancement as do scalers inside plasma screens etc due to scaling algorithms used.


Bare in mind that the mpeg decoder can also make a difference as to the appearance of the image.
 

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But what if they aren't using bicubic filtering to zoom in on the image?


Most of the DVD reviews I see do not show images of EE, they just say

whether or not they saw it when watching the DVD.


Is there a hidden meaning to this post? :)


larry
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Yep... don't judge dvd PQ by screen shots :) how many times have you seen a review go on about edge enhancement with a particular title accompanied by a "have a look at the halos on this" image?


Perhaps there is a bit of a hidden meaning with this, I was trying to demonstrate that different filtering algorithms used by scalers can have an influence over percieved edge enhancement even when all connections are digital. There's also the thought that bi-cubic filtering, although it does enhance edges, does look nicer when used to enlarge some images when compared with bi-linear.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
I'm not sure how they are downsizing the HD master for superbit titles but the algorithms they use could easily produce similar artifacts when mastering the dvd...


A scaler connected between dvd player and screen could reduce or remove edge enhancement just as easy as it can make it worse or make it visible, but it would have to adapt on the fly to the amount of EE reduction required, and do it without making the image look soft.


Scaling algorithms are getting more complex every day with more processing power being available, they can produce more realistic images, there's much more to it than bi-linear and bi-cubic.
 

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Your points are well-taken, cybersoga, but what I don't understand is why edge enhancement is used on any anamorphic DVDs. It just doesn't make sense to me.


I can see some logic in using it on 4:3 theatrical DVDs that alot of viewers will be watching on older SD analog tubes. But putting EE on anamorphic DVDs just doesn't seem to make any sense, since it does nothing to enhance the PQ on the higher resolution 16:9 displays.
 

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cybersoga,


your dead on with your point about scaling introducing ringing. Yet, its basically irrelevant to the fact of using scaled screenshots to analyze EE on DVDs. Why? Because the scope of ringing that is encoded on the DVD is several magnitudes higher than that of the ringing that is produced by scaling.


So, all you need to do, is make sure you use an 'appropriate' filter to upscale and, more importantly, have that filters characteristic in mind when you inspect the shot. But again, in practice its really an non-issue, since the scope of the 2 ringing domains (encoded-on-DVD vs scaling-induced) is so different.


Let me prepare a little picture for you to bring across that point.


Regards

Bjoern
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by ADU
Your points are well-taken, cybersoga, but what I don't understand is why edge enhancement is used on any anamorphic DVDs. It just doesn't make sense to me.

The only reason I could think of as to why it'd be used still is as an attempt to compensate for DNR softening (especially if the DNR was heavy-handed).
 

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IMHO most of the reviews that indicate Edge enhancement come from reviewers using very large displays.....often front projectors with screens in the 100 inch range or larger. Is it not true that this problem really becomes most self evident on a really large display? I never feel to bothered by it on my 57 inch RPTV. Even after getting a close look at EE at the site mentioned above I still seldom if ever notice it.
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by deeann
The only reason I could think of as to why it'd be used still is as an attempt to compensate for DNR softening (especially if the DNR was heavy-handed).
Thx for the reply deeann. Would that perhaps be more applicable to older 16:9 CRT RPTVs? If so, then you'd think this practice would be phased out by now, at least on the anamorphic DVDs.


To be honest though, I think the application of EE to anamorphic DVDs is probably just another gimmick that some studios use to get people to drop their bread twice for the same movie-- first the crudy theatrical version with EE, and then again later on for the cleaned-up "special edition".


This is one of the reasons I like to buy DVDs used from stores that will accept returns, so I can send the ones with poorer PQ back.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Hi Bjoern, the fact I mentioned your site in the first two lines demonstrates that I have great respect for you and your site and I know the screeen shots you have used are accurate because you show the "sharpness" image with no halos at the bottom of the page.


The problem is that other sites arn't as knowlageable as yourself and you don't know what filtering they use to enlarge screen shots, they just think it has EE because of what they read on your site. I take your point about the amount of EE being introduced/added due to filtering to be relitively small compared with the amount of EE on typical DVDs, but still, if an already EE-ed DVD was enlarged with bi-cubic filtering then it would make the halos look worse than if it was enlarged without filtering. Your site doesn't do much to educate people with regards to filtering algorithms, perhaps you could make a page about it?


If reviewers can also say they have their main viewing screen calibrated so there is no ringing in the sharpness Avia test then i'll be happy that the ringing is coming from the dvd and not from the display equipment.
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by deeann
The only reason I could think of as to why it'd be used still is as an attempt to compensate for DNR softening (especially if the DNR was heavy-handed).
I agree. The DNR/EE cocktail seems to be more potent than either alone.


The most blatant offender I've seen is Lion's Gate. I recently reviewed two of their films, Pipe Dream and Songcatcher. The edge enhancement in Pipe Dream was bad, but there was something worse than usual in the crawling backgound textures. The only conclusion I could draw was that they applied DNR to reduce the graininess of the film, them applied EE afterward. Where the DNR created strobing artifacts, the EE magnified them.


It was the only way I could explain it. Similar weirdness occurred in Songcatcher, but the source print was in better shape, so less DNR was needed, so the edge enhancement didn't compound it too much.


If anyone has a more enlightened viewpoint, I'd love to hear it. The review links are below. look in the Rebuttal Witnesses section for the video discussion.
http://www.dvdverdict.com/reviews/pipedream.shtml
http://www.dvdverdict.com/reviews/songcatcher.shtml
 

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This reminds me. The director of Pipe Dream, John Walsh, emailed me after the review was posted. He was concerned about my comments regarding the video quality of the DVD. I told him that most people wouldn't notice, but that people with high end setups would. I created this page to show him what I was commenting on:

http://www.roblineberger.com/pipedream


This page shows the DNR/EE combo I noticed. If anyone out there has Pipe Dream, or has the time to look over this page, I'd appreciate comments. I want to learn this stuff so my reviews better serve people.
 

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Ok, here we go.


As i said, your point that different scaling algorithms induce different amounts or ringing 'on top' of the ringing that is encoded on the DVD, is dead on.


Yet, i will try to show that this 'additional' ringing is basically irrelevant under real world situations, and thus your concern that DVD reviewers use these algorithms, is only 'theoretically' valid, a mood point really.


I prepared a comparison picture that demonstrates the effect that different scaling algorithms have on various amounts of source inherent ringing on DVD transfers. For the comparison, i upscaled frames from 6 different DVDs from NTSC SD resolution (720x480) to HD (1920x1080), mimicing a high-end HT application (e.g. 9" CRT with scaler), or a DVD review that uses upscaled screenshots to show deficiencies (like i do on my site). I then used equally sized 200x225 pixel big crops from these upscaled frames to focus on 'critical' areas, where the level of ringing is clearly visible.

http://www.videophile.info/Misc/ScalingEE/Comp_01.jpg http://www.videophile.info/Misc/Scal...mp_01_mini.jpg
[Click to enlarge]


From left to right, the amount of DVD inherent ringing increases considerably:


1.) AVIA

No ringing at all. These are black lines on a gray background.


2.) Fast and the Furious

Very high level of detail, yet basically no ringing. Great.


3.) X-Men

A tad more ringing. Still very good.


4.) Unbreakable

Quite thick and strong halos, equally in both dimensions. Bad.


5.) Star Wars: The Phantom Manace

A real classic. Ugh!


6.) Die Hard 3, first edition

Sensational.



I used 4 different scaling algorithms to upscale these 6 samples. They too differ considerably in regard to the amount of ringing they induce, only the first one doesn't induce any ringing at all. Why would someone choose any other scaling algorithms than the first one then, you might ask?


Well, its not that easy. Going into more detail on scaling is on my to-do list, but thats a broad and complex topic. But it should be suffice to say that the scaling algorithms are always a tradeoff between 4 characteristics: ringing, response/detail, postaliasing and computational demand. Bilinear, which is the filter that inherently doen't induce any ringing of its own, is also very easy to compute, but isn't optimal postaliasing wise and its transfered response is the most soft/blurry from any scaling algorithms available.


So for HT scaling applications, bilinear filtering is a rather bad choice. For DVD reviews, it would do, but as is my very intend to demonstrate in this post, the ringing induced through the other filters does't really affect the screenshots sufficiently to make this too big an issue.



From top to bottom, the amount of scaling induced ringing increases:


To inspect these differences in ringing, its adviced to focus on the leftmost AVIA pattern, since its the only one without any source inherent ringing. Lateron, i will discuss the effect this has on the actual movie samples!


1.) Photoshop Bilinear Filter

The topmost row is upscaled with Photoshop's bilinear filter. As already mentioned Bilinear scaling doesn't induce any ringing of its own, as can be seen on the AVIA crop on the left. Its incapable of transfering the frequency response properly, though, resulting in a blurry picture (e.g. Van Diesel's face).


2.) Bell Filter

This is the filter that i use for my reviews. It does induce the very slightest amount of ringing (again, see AVIA pattern), so little, that most probably wouldn't have noticed. Response is a bit better with this filter.


3.) Photoshop Bicubic Filter

This is probably the most common upscaling algorithm. Graphic cards like Radeon/Geforce are using this since years, some external scalers as well. Rescaling in Photoshop and other tools is mostly done with it. And its probably used by the few sites that use scaled screenshots like i do. The reason for its popularity is the good 'balance' between the 4 characteristics that i mentioned above.


If you inspect the AVIA pattern, you can see that it has indeed quite a bit more ringing than the earlier 2 filters, but its still rather simple to compute (at least with reasonable support/neighborhood) and has very good response.


4.) Lanczos-windowed Sinc Filter

The family of Sinc filters are 'ideal' in the sense that they theoretically transfer the response flat. In its pure form, a sinc filter would have infinite support, thus being uncomputable. Even with restricted support, and using a Lanczos-window is one such restriction, they are very compute intense.


The price you pay for the 'perfect' response is considerable ringing, though.





Now, if you only look at the AVIA pattern, you could think that the ringing that is induced through the different filters is rather severe, especially in case of the Lanczos filter. Yet, if you look at the second sample (Vin Diesel), you'll see that there is not that much if any actual difference in ringing.


The tree in the top left for example is a prime 'potential' candidate for ringing. Heck, on 90% of all DVDs, this would be a mess no matter how you slice it! Yet, even the Lanczos filter doesn't manage to turn this into anything but smooth, ringing-free bliss. [Hey, i am not talking about the movie here :D ]


Why is it that the AVIA pattern shows the difference in ringing so blunt, yet that tree doesn't? The reason is, that the the resampling filters mostly produce ringing from frequencies close to the passband limit (e.g. 6.75Mhz in case of DVD). The pixel perfect lines in the AVIA pattern HAVE response flat to that limit. Thus, they induce heavy ringing.


All 'real' DVDs are heavily filtered, though. In the horizontal direction, the Superbit titles are the closest to being unfiltered, although at the cost of aliasing. Vertically, the Superbits are just as much filtered as any other title to minimize interlace flicker. If specially tailored for progressive display, the Superbit concept could also be used vertically (opening up the filter), yielding yet another gain in picture detail. 'Superbit squared'


Anyway, because DVDs are so heavily filtered, they don't contain much, if any, response close to the passband limit and are thus less likely to cause much ringing. So basically the primary tradeoff of scaling algorithms: response/detail vs ringing is slightly tilted. The 'negative' aspect ringing, is not as much a problem. The 'positive' aspect response preveils.


So what you basically see when you inspect all the 5 movie samples, is that the different filters don't really 'add' any ringing that isn't there. What it does, is make the ringing that is there, 'stand out' more, since the transfered frequency response is higher towards higher freuencies and 'ringing' is mostly higher frequencies (not really in TPM or let alone DH3 :D).


No matter which row of samples you watch, its always apparent that Furious has none, Unbreakable has considerable, and the latter 2 have excessive ringing. The 'relationship' among these DVDs in regard to ringing is always the same.


And thats the important thing here. ALL upscaled screenshot samples i have ever seen posted, always really really actually demonstrated the deficiencies that are present ON THE DISC. No matter what upsampling filter used. And since bicubic isn't even the filter that introduces the most ringing of its own, yet its the most used one, makes this a complete non-issue.


Again, the reason you see a bit more ringing for example in the Lanczos Unbreakable sample is NOT because it 'adds' that ringing. Its because the transfered frequency response is much better with that filter, thus those higher frequencies of which the ringing consists, are less subdued, thus more visible. So the bilinear filter 'blurrs away' some of that ringing. The problem is, that 'real detail' in that freqency range are blurred away as well.


I laid out my case, honorable jury. I vote 'not guilty' :)


Best regards

Bjoern
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Thanks for that, much appreciated. I consider myself educated :)


I too wish for DVD's that are unfiltered in both directions, with *real* detail all the way up to 6.75mhz, or look at it another way - every pixel used to represent real detail - what amazes me is that people are looking at high definition but we arn't using every pixel that dvd is capable of yet!
 

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Oh, we are using even less of what HD is capable of :)
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Hows that then? I don't see any Moire in the avia resolution tests at 6.75mhz on a PC dvd player, and very little on my main screen (Plasma) - any Moire would be a deficiantcy in the scaler, screen, dvd player or video cable wouldn't it?


I know you'd see twitter between fields on an interlaced screen which can make the picture look like it's flickering more, but you'd still have more detail - if they wanted, they could put flicker filters on the interlace outputs on dvd players to reduce this if needed couldnt they?
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by cybersoga

Hows that then? I don't see any Moire in the avia resolution tests at 6.75mhz on a PC dvd player, and very little on my main screen (Plasma) - any Moire would be a deficiantcy in the scaler, screen, dvd player or video cable wouldn't it?
The reason you don't see artifacts in the test pattern is because all of the 6.75 MHz details are in phase with the pixels. Hypothetically, if the test pattern was redesigned by shifting it horizontally by half a pixel, then the 6.75 MHz details would be out of phase with the pixels, and you would see a solid gray instead of alternating black and white lines.
 
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