[Minker17]

So this is a new thing to me, but from my research, it looks like the big two are Black Diamond and Parallax. I'm using a GT5600 Short Throw for an office, projecting about 150". The wall it's going onto is already a very dark, almost black, and the CEO wants to put a black screen up so he doesn't have a white rectangle in the middle of the wall.

As far as I can tell, these two screens are VERY expensive. So what are my options? Is there a paint or another vendor that makes another product? Personally, I'd say it could be something other than black that isn't white, but I don't know anything about non-white screens.

Any advice?

 

[Dave in Green]

The GT5600 is not a short throw projector but is considered an ultra short throw (UST) model. Assuming by black you mean an ambient light rejecting (ALR) screen model, UST projectors don't work well with standard throw ALR screens. UST projectors require specially engineered ALR screens due to the steep projection angle to the screen. Only a few UST-specific ALR screens are available and I'm not aware of any as large as 150" diagonal. I believe that current UST ALR screens top out at 120". You might want to read the article at the link below for further explanation.

soundandvision.com/content/ultra-short-throw-projectors-and-ambient-light-rejecting-screens-perfect-together

 

[bud16415]

Sounds like every CEO I have ever met.

There is no absolutely black screen, as it would not project anything. They do look very dark though and the technology in making them is why they cost so much. They fall into the family of screens called ALR (ambient light rejecting) they work by having a very high angular gain and thus a small prime viewing cone. In short they reject light coming from the sides and above. Pairing them with a short throw projector might work against you as that is making the projector a light source strongly from above or below as you didn’t mention if it will be ceiling mounted or not. UST (ultra short throws) projectors do have a special type of directional screen made just for them, but I don’t know if they go that large.

We also don’t know what you will be playing on it, Video, powerpoint, etc? Also will the lights be dimmed or is he wanting a bright room presentation. Also how wide of a seating angle will the viewers be in.

If the whole wall can be painted to be a stealth screen I would suggest a very bright standard throw length projector and painting the wall a dark neutral gray in the .4-.5 gain range. This is what Disney uses for a screen gain in their 360 degree outdoor movies in their theme parks. Some of the DLP projectors with and RGBCYW color wheel 1080p come to mind or Epson makes some great 1080p light cannons also. You might need something with a 5000 or more lumen spec depending on the rooms lighting.

As always @Dave in Green types faster than I do.

 

[Minker17]

It's going to be in a big open room. One whole wall is windows and there's ceiling lights we (currently) can't turn off. Don't worry about viewing angles or anything like that. We be used for company meetings, just mainly powerpoint. I just want something we'll be able to see in those conditions. I already have the projector ceiling mounted and it works out to ~150.

Is there something you'd recommend? White or otherwise?

 

[Dave in Green]

@Minker17, there are no simple answers because a projector, screen and room environment work together as a system and there are many variables to consider. For example, a bright room is the most difficult environment for video projection because ambient light kills the image. Complicating that is that the larger the screen the dimmer the image because you're spreading the same number of projector lumens over a larger area. So you want the brightest projector you can get to help partially overcome ambient light washing out the image.

You already have a brighter than average room environment for front projection. You already have your projector so you can't get any more lumens out of it than you already are. And you already have an image size (150") that's at the large end of where that projector is capable of producing a satisfactorily bright image in a fairly dark room. All that's left is to find a magic screen material that will compensate for all the other factors working against your system.

In terms of plain matte screens that reflect image light evenly in all directions white will give you the brightest image. But it will also reflect all the ambient light in the room, offsetting the bright image. A plain matte dark grey screen will reduce the amount of ambient light reflected but also reduce the brightness of the image. There might be a very minor improvement in overall image quality due to reducing cross reflections but it still won't be much different than projecting on your plain painted wall.

ALR screens are often called black screens because many of them are dark grey. But they are also specially designed to reject ambient light coming from angles other than where the projector image light is coming from. They also have directional gain so they reflect more image light toward those viewing from near the center of the viewing cone and less toward the sides so those viewing from the side will see a dimmer image. As we've already discussed, a UST projector won't work well with a standard ALR screen and requires one specially designed for UST. I don't believe any 150" models are available.

Given what you already have in terms of projector, room environment and image size there's nothing I'm aware of that's going to give you a great image.

 

[Minker17]

@Minker17, there are no simple answers because a projector, screen and room environment work together as a system and there are many variables to consider. For example, a bright room is the most difficult environment for video projection because ambient light kills the image. Complicating that is that the larger the screen the dimmer the image because you're spreading the same number of projector lumens over a larger area. So you want the brightest projector you can get to help partially overcome ambient light washing out the image.

You already have a brighter than average room environment for front projection. You already have your projector so you can't get any more lumens out of it than you already are. And you already have an image size (150") that's at the large end of where that projector is capable of producing a satisfactorily bright image in a fairly dark room. All that's left is to find a magic screen material that will compensate for all the other factors working against your system.

In terms of plain matte screens that reflect image light evenly in all directions white will give you the brightest image. But it will also reflect all the ambient light in the room, offsetting the bright image. A plain matte dark grey screen will reduce the amount of ambient light reflected but also reduce the brightness of the image. There might be a very minor improvement in overall image quality due to reducing cross reflections but it still won't be much different than projecting on your plain painted wall.

ALR screens are often called black screens because many of them are dark grey. But they are also specially designed to reject ambient light coming from angles other than where the projector image light is coming from. They also have directional gain so they reflect more image light toward those viewing from near the center of the viewing cone and less toward the sides so those viewing from the side will see a dimmer image. As we've already discussed, a UST projector won't work well with a standard ALR screen and requires one specially designed for UST. I don't believe any 150" models are available.

Given what you already have in terms of projector, room environment and image size there's nothing I'm aware of that's going to give you a great image.

Thanks for the reply! I'm glad that you told me what you did about ALR.

So given all the info, it looks like my options would be - paint, white screen, grey screen. Nothing will be great. If you were going to lean towards a manufactured screen, what would you go with?

 

[bud16415]

At this point the best thing you can do is hire an electrician to wire the lights in rows starting close to the screen and proceeding away from the screen to light dimmers that can be programmed to set the best dark level to suit projection and the best bright level for having a meeting. The next best thing would be to hire a curtain installer to install motorized black out shades that can be dropped whenever the projector is powered up. The third thing I would do is purchase a motorized roll down 1.0-1.3 gain white 150” screen that rolls down once the projector is powered up. Cheaper the better. This way your CEO won’t see a white rectangle on the wall.

Lastly pray he doesn’t leave the office and go to another company that did a proper installation where they studied the situation and optimized all the systems to work together.

 

[Dave in Green]

Thanks for the reply! I'm glad that you told me what you did about ALR.

So given all the info, it looks like my options would be - paint, white screen, grey screen. Nothing will be great. If you were going to lean towards a manufactured screen, what would you go with?

Since I don't see a silver bullet solution, as long as I found the current 150" image brightness adequate for viewers to be able to see what they need to see my inclination would be to go with something like a Silver Ticket 150" diagonal, 16:9 aspect ratio fixed screen with standard matte white screen material (model # STR-169150). It will work with a UST projector and give you a bright image. Silver Ticket's grey screen material would make image black areas a little less greyish but the tradeoff would be greyer whites. The grey screen material costs more, too, and I just don't think it would be worth it for your application. You can get this screen for

 

[Minker17]

Since I don't see a silver bullet solution, as long as I found the current 150" image brightness adequate for viewers to be able to see what they need to see my inclination would be to go with something like a Silver Ticket 150" diagonal, 16:9 aspect ratio fixed screen with standard matte white screen material (model # STR-169150). It will work with a UST projector and give you a bright image. Silver Ticket's grey screen material would make image black areas a little less greyish but the tradeoff would be greyer whites. The grey screen material costs more, too, and I just don't think it would be worth it for your application. You can get this screen for

 

[Dave in Green]

Excellent. Thank you. This was actually my thought as well. That screen too.

@bud16415 usually gives good advice. But in this case I think he forgot the UST angle when recommending a power retractable screen. Most retractable screens develop waves unless you pay a lot of money for a premium model with adjustable tab tensioning. UST projectors have a big problem with screen waves due to the extreme angle they project on the screen. This can result in the waves casting shadows on the image which can be distracting. Fixed screens don't develop waves because they use stretchy material stretched tight over the frame like a drum. The bonus is that a Silver Ticket fixed screen is a fraction of the cost of a quality 150" tab tensioned retractable screen.

 

[bud16415]

@bud16415 usually gives good advice. But in this case I think he forgot the UST angle when recommending a power retractable screen. Most retractable screens develop waves unless you pay a lot of money for a premium model with adjustable tab tensioning. UST projectors have a big problem with screen waves due to the extreme angle they project on the screen. This can result in the waves casting shadows on the image which can be distracting. Fixed screens don't develop waves because they use stretchy material stretched tight over the frame like a drum. The bonus is that a Silver Ticket fixed screen is a fraction of the cost of a quality 150" tab tensioned retractable screen.

I agree Dave except the OP is only doing business presentations with power-point etc. I wouldn’t want to watch a movie on it with some slight waves, but looking at a pie chart in a washed out environment I might not mind it.

I guess it boils down to will the white rectangle hanging there 24-7 be worse or better than the chance of some waves. Ether way it’s a $300 mistake if it is too bad.

It is a good point you bring up and the OP will have to make the call.

 

[Dave in Green]

Going back to the original post, if the boss is really averse to having a big white rectangle on the wall it might be worth paying a little extra for the Silver Ticket grey screen material. It's a fairly light grey but at least it's not white. Blacks will look a little more convincing but whites will be a little dingier than with the matte white screen material. Either white or grey would work with a slightly different mix of pros and cons. Pick your poison.

 

[Minker17]

Morning everyone, would something like this work for me?

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00DTOA554/ref=psdc_1286610011_t2_B00M3D21ZY

 

[bud16415]

Morning everyone, would something like this work for me?

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00DTOA554/ref=psdc_1286610011_t2_B00M3D21ZY

With a 1.5 gain angular reflective screen and a UST projector my guess is a lot of your brightness will go to the floor not the viewers. They say it has an 80 degree viewing cone so with a standard throw projector 40 degrees off center viewers you will loose half the brightness. With the steep angle of a UST I fear it will be way less.

The screen would help with your windows off to the side with a regular projector.

Others will give their opinions.

 

[Minker17]

With a 1.5 gain angular reflective screen and a UST projector my guess is a lot of your brightness will go to the floor not the viewers. They say it has an 80 degree viewing cone so with a standard throw projector 40 degrees off center viewers you will loose half the brightness. With the steep angle of a UST I fear it will be way less.

The screen would help with your windows off to the side with a regular projector.

Others will give their opinions.

Thanks for the info here. He still wants not-white and was talking about how he saw short throw black screens, so would want a grey if possible.

I, personally, am leaning towards this - https://www.amazon.com/STR-169150-S...R-169150&qid=1565704807&s=gateway&sr=8-2&th=1

He said we can go white if we need to, I'm just trying to avoid unnecessary work either from him being unhappy with the white or unhappy with the image of the grey. We're also talking about a ~$1000 difference, so I might just go with the white screen and be done. Easier to eat a $500 cost than a $1500.

 

[bud16415]

Thanks for the info here. He still wants not-white and was talking about how he saw short throw black screens, so would want a grey if possible.

I, personally, am leaning towards this - https://www.amazon.com/STR-169150-S...R-169150&qid=1565704807&s=gateway&sr=8-2&th=1

He said we can go white if we need to, I'm just trying to avoid unnecessary work either from him being unhappy with the white or unhappy with the image of the grey. We're also talking about a ~$1000 difference, so I might just go with the white screen and be done. Easier to eat a $500 cost than a $1500.

He likely saw one of the special ALR screens made specifically for UST projectors we talked about earlier and Dave thought they didn’t come as large as what you want.

That would be the perfect thing if he could live with a smaller screen. The smaller screen would also give you a brighter image another plus in PQ.

I don’t know a lot about these screens except they are dark gray and have a lenticular surface. That surface is what makes them expensive and I’m sure limits the size.

 

[Imageek2]

Here is a picture of my 100" UST screen. As you can see it is a dark gray. As others have noted I haven't seen any UST screens at 150". The price jump from the 100" to 120" was significant so I imagine if you did find a 150" it would be very expensive.

 

[bud16415]

https://www.viewsonic.com/us/projectors/shop/projectors-accessories/bcp120.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=6&v=bvYjnlFvo3g

 

[Dave in Green]

@Minker17, why don't you report back to your boss that you've thoroughly researched projection screens and the only "black" (actually dark grey) ALR screen designed to work with a UST projector like yours is available in a maximum size of 120" and costs ~$1,600. It would provide the brightest, sharpest image in your bright room as long as he's OK with the higher price and smaller size. Otherwise, the best 150" screen you can find costs ~$500 and is available in either white or light grey. The image will be less sharp and bright than the smaller, more expensive one, but the cost will be much lower and it will be the same 150" size you're using now. Make your boss pick his own poison.

 

[bud16415]

To add to @Dave in Green above suggestion. Moving the conference table a couple feet closer to the 120” will make it as large as the 150” in terms of viewing.