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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
It occurred to be that 3D BluRay movies have to be 'ghost busted' to reduce noticeable crosstalk on

consumer 3D displays, especially the LCD variety.

I'm thinking that this has a negative side effect of reducing the image quality in every other way.



I am trying to figure out how to test this using the 'ghost busting' feature of NEO3D from Cineform with some home made content.
 

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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
I am converting this video to Cineform format so that I can "ghostbust" it and analyze the results.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/7350380/3.ts

This video has so much ghosting on my Samsung UN40C7000 as to render it unwatchable.

I plan on playing both before and after versions in 3D on my Samsung at the same time so I can see the difference.
 

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Apprently the ghosts are actually part of the individual right and left eye frames after their MVC formated frames are decoded by the player and then sent to the LCD display and are not caused by problems with the shutter glases. This certainly could be the case of the firmware in the LCD 3D TVs has trouble creating the separate right and left video frames from the double frame packed frame format or they are haveing motion blur problems that look like ghosts. This makes sense when you consider all of the firmware updates Samsung has made to both their LCD and Plasma 3D TVs and to their player.

What does the Dropbox program enable you to do/view.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
I don't know about all that.

What I am currently testing has nothing do to with BluRay format but everything to do with ghosts (crosstalk) as a display problem.

The dropbox file referenced earlier is a video I made myself at an airshow that shows more crosstalk then virtually anything I've seen.

I am using a program I own called "Firstlight" from a company called Cineform to attempt reducing the crosstalk as shown by my Samsung 3D LCD TV.

I am interested in how effective it is at that and what the side effects of it are.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank /forum/post/19632055


It occurred to be that 3D BluRay movies have to be 'ghost busted' to reduce noticeable crosstalk on

consumer 3D displays, especially the LCD variety.

I'm thinking that this has a negative side effect of reducing the image quality in every other way.



I am trying to figure out how to test this using the 'ghost busting' feature of NEO3D from Cineform with some home made content.

This is nice.

Extremely high contrast and that is why it is ghosting on your plasma.


The stereo windows size you have set is compatible with movie theater screen size.


Mathew Orman
 

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Frank,

Your statment "It occurred to be that 3D BluRay movies have to be 'ghost busted' to reduce noticeable crosstalk on consumer 3D displays, especially the LCD variety."

confused me.

As Icestar has pointed out severa times you can determine it the ghosting in the display images for each eye or is caused by crosstalk in the lens of the glases by covering they lens separatly for each in the glases with your hand.

If with one lens closed you see ghosting in the image then you know the problem is with the display and not with the glases.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by walford /forum/post/19632802


Frank,

Your statment "It occurred to be that 3D BluRay movies have to be 'ghost busted' to reduce noticeable crosstalk on consumer 3D displays, especially the LCD variety."

confused me.

As Icestar has pointed out severa times you can determine it the ghosting in the display images for each eye or is caused by crosstalk in the lens of the glases by covering they lens separatly for each in the glases with your hand.

If with one lens closed you see ghosting in the image then you know the problem is with the display and not with the glases.

I know quite well what it is and what causes it, believe me.

Try downloading my 3D video of the world war II bomber and see the ghosting for yourself.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
I am currently rendering a "ghostbusted" version of the bomber video but it is going to take a while to complete.
 

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You've lapped me with the Cineform software, Frank.
I'll be following this thread with interest. I'm curious what you're going to find out.


My assumption has always been that "ghostbusting" software probably does make compromises in both images in its attempt to limit the effects of crosstalk for the 3D displays that are out there. That is, I assume that such software attempts to bring the contrast of overlapping high contrast 3D images closer to one another. (OTOH, I'd be surprised if it actually embedded anti-ghost images in the respective left/right frames.) Reducing contrast should limit ghosting, but it probably also degrades both images. Just how much it does so is what I'm assuming you want to figure out, right? Ideally, 3D filmmakers shouldn't have to worry about such things. Unfortunately, the technology in most displays (and shutter glasses) can't eliminate crosstalk completely.


I'm curious if you've run ghosting tests on your DLP. Do you find that it eliminates ghosting altogether? I provided a ghosting test image to a couple of users of the little Acer 5360 DLP projector, and they reported no ghosting at all. That really surprised me, because I always assumed the shutter glasses would introduce at least a little ghosting, but they both said there was NO TRACE. At the time, I couldn't find your test images easily, so I threw together a couple of SbS images similar to yours in Photoshop. The ghosting, as in your test images, is extremely obvious on my Samsung plasma.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Good points all, Joe.

I admit to having seen some slight ghosting on my Mitsubishi 82738 DLP. Better keep it just between you and me though.



It seems to me that crosstalk will negatively effect the picture quality even when it isn't noticeable and the same thing goes when ghostbusting is used, however it works.

From what I've seen so far, Neo3D seems to just alter the contrast. I'll be able to do a side by side comparison after it finishes rendering...
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by icester /forum/post/19632930


All you get will be lower contrast video.


Mathew Orman

I think you're right.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
By the way, the bomber video:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/7350380/3.ts

Shows absolutely zero ghosting on my Mitsubishi DLP and just about nothing but ghosting on my Samsung LCD and lot's of ghosting on my Panasonic Viera.


Must be all that darn contrast.
 

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Hey icester, you seem very knowledgeable with 3d. Will we ever see an improvement in ghosting with the current LCD and plasma displays, be it with better glasses or firmware updates, or are we SOL.
 

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IMO, one day ghosting will be a thing of the past. People may even have to eat some humble pie for blaming filmmakers today for "causing ghosting." Let the filmmakers make what they want to make, as contrasty as they feel it needs to be. It's the display manufacturers who need to clean up their act. While they're doing it, 2D image quality will improve, also. People who condemn 3d today will enjoy a much better 2D image in the future, in large part because of improvements driven by 3D.
 

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Frank,

For witch of your 3D TVs do you think have ghosting problems due to the TV's processsing of the incoming source and which have problems with the glases you are using for them.

In addition to you think that since the DLP is using 1/2R checkerboard format that reduces the ghosting you see with some content source.

I agree with Joe that in the next year or two that the 3D TVs and the 3D BR players will eliminate any ghosting caused by their internal firmware. That will leave elimination of ghosts caused by poor created source content and by better glases that have faster reponse times and less probability of the lenses that are closed not being 100% opaque to content from the other lens as the other improvements that will also occur.

This first year of delivering 3D TVs and the developing of content for them has certainly been interesting and we all of have learned a lot and that combined with improved TV firmware for both TV's and players during the year.

I expect the 2011 systems to be much easier for the user to setup and use and to have significantly less ghosting caused by the hardware or by the glases.
 

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Hey frank I watched your video on my samsung plasma. The only ghosting I saw was on the black objects in the video, like the wheels and the propellers. Otherwise the video is flawless and beautiful. Are those the same places that you are experiencing crosstalk.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by neo0285 /forum/post/19633162


Hey frank I watched your video on my samsung plasma. The only ghosting I saw was on the black objects in the video, like the wheels and the propellers. Otherwise the video is flawless and beautiful. Are those the same places that you are experiencing crosstalk.

That sounds right for my Panasonic Plasma but since I don't use it anymore, I have to go from the last time I viewed that video on it which was a while ago.

Still, it was noticeable enough that I remember it.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank /forum/post/0


That sounds right for my Panasonic Plasma but since I don't use it anymore, I have to go from the last time I viewed that video on it which was a while ago.

Still, it was noticeable enough that I remember it.

Oh it is definitely there. I was quite impressed with the quality of the video otherwise. I was shocked that side by side video can look that good.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by neo0285 /forum/post/19633182


Oh it is definitely there. I was quite impressed with the quality of the video otherwise. I was shocked that side by side video can look that good.

It's the CONTRAST!

FULL BluRay 3DHD can't do it because it would cause too much viewer discomfort for the poor folks with LCD 3DTVS!
AKA: (ghost city)
 
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