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Discussion Starter #1
Hi guys!
want to switch from six UM-18 in 6.2 net internal sealed enclosures, arranged in an SBA behind the screen, to eight pro style drivers like the LaVoce saf184.03(any other recommendations are welcomed) in the same enclosures( will build another two).My room is about 23/16/8 all concrete walls and ceiling and think has alot of headroom.
How can I predict or simulate how low do the eight pro goes in room and at witch spl?
Thanks.
 

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You can definitely expect more bass from 40hz to 300hz.

I haven't modeled it but I doubt you'd be able to go much lower, 6 UM-18's should be able to hit 2hz already (although perhaps just not at super-audible SPL's).
You'll probably gain 4-7db across the board depending on exact conditions; at higher frequencies probably substantially more...

If you are into rock music, dance music and explosions, then you'll probably be happy with the upgrade.

If your goal is more Irene and BassILoveU and InfrasonicDeath, then you might not be as mind-blown...
In terms of infrasonics, 8 SI-24's and 2 FP20k's would do better, if that is your aim.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
I’m looking more for the midbass chest punch, (kick,slam) I guess;don’t know exactly what frequency that is,60-200,I guess, looking to hear a kick drum like the drum solo on Toad,Cream- Live at the Albert Hall bluray,so lively as possible.Think I’m not so in infrasonic,although,since I put the UMs in sealed boxes,I hear some things that I don’t heard before in the ULF region, that’s pretty cool.
Someone recommend the BMS18n862 to reach more down low,but that is almost four times the price of the LaVoce.Think I’m looking to reach between 15 and 20Hz with eight saf184.03,do you think that’s realistic?looked also at the cheeper Dayton pa460 and the most expensive B&C 18ds115.Do you think the 8 ohm LaVoce will be a problem to drive it with the inukes6000,one per channel?
 

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If you are looking for chest slam then you don’t need to go low. The six UM18 you already have should have all the low end you need. As bassthathz had said The UMs already are good to 2hz, although you might need some boost to get there.
Sounds to me like an improper setup may have you scratching your head and instead of fixing it you just though you might fix it with force (throw more at it).
Do you have a mic and Rew to eq your subs, a minidsp? Have you placed your subs in the best possible place? Have you time aligned them? Do you have more info for us or even a picture of your room?

I don’t know what your room looks like but if it was my room and I wanted more I would look into splitting the UMs with pro drivers to make use of the best possible efficiency of each driver. So, get two pro18’s and drop them into sealed boxes (because you already have sealed) but have the pros play from 40hz and up and then use the UM for 40hz and lower.

If it were my room I would have two UMs in each rear corner and then the two pros sitting on top of single UMs in the front corners of the room. Some people like them all up front but I don’t, for movie watching nothing is better than one in every corner of the room IMHO. Run the front subs like I said from 2-40hz and 40hz and up, run the rear subs from 2hz and up.

Bottom line for me is that you would gain more of what you want with a pro diver playing higher than changing anything else.
 

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I’m looking more for the midbass chest punch, (kick,slam) I guess;don’t know exactly what frequency that is,60-200,I guess, looking to hear a kick drum like the drum solo on Toad,Cream- Live at the Albert Hall bluray,so lively as possible.Think I’m not so in infrasonic,although,since I put the UMs in sealed boxes,I hear some things that I don’t heard before in the ULF region, that’s pretty cool.
Someone recommend the BMS18n862 to reach more down low,but that is almost four times the price of the LaVoce.Think I’m looking to reach between 15 and 20Hz with eight saf184.03,do you think that’s realistic?looked also at the cheeper Dayton pa460 and the most expensive B&C 18ds115.Do you think the 8 ohm LaVoce will be a problem to drive it with the inukes6000,one per channel?
I built four PA460's into a counter/bar stand for more mid bass. I have my front dayton 18's tuned to about 17 and the pa's are about 35. All sound good and don't feel a need for any more mid bass now. High pass on the pa's at 45 and the fronts lps at 60. Blend very nice.
 

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I like the idea of , adding more, rather than replacing. Try some Skar EVL 18.
 
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Discussion Starter #7
Maybe I put on the wrong title “how low can you go” with the 8 pro sealed; the subs will be in a specific arrangement in a Single Bass Array and don’t want to mix UM and pro.I’ll ask it this way, if I can hit under 20Hz at a reasonable SPL with the 8 pro drivers, and have a strong and clean midbass,more better that UMs(quicker,punchier,precise)
 

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Maybe I put on the wrong title “how low can you go” with the 8 pro sealed; the subs will be in a specific arrangement in a Single Bass Array and don’t want to mix UM and pro.I’ll ask it this way, if I can hit under 20Hz at a reasonable SPL with the 8 pro drivers, and have a strong and clean midbass,more better that UMs(quicker,punchier,precise)
How about you stick with stating the frequency range you're looking to focus on. "quicker,punchier,precise" means very little, as those terms are very subjective. Why are you against mixing the UM18-22 with pro drivers?
if I can hit under 20Hz at a reasonable SPL
Define reasonable.

As already stated, those pro drivers will obviously play under 20hz, but will do so with much less output (3db to 6db) than the UM18-22.
 
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What is your crossover set to your speakers? 8 UM18s should have plenty of clean midbass. I mean you are closing in on 140 dB of midbass, must be a setup problem.
 

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He doesn't have 8, he has 6.
But still, it should have a decent amount of output already.

quicker,punchier,precise
The short answer is: yes

Low frequencies (1-40hz etc) are mostly displacement limited.
Displacement is basically cone area x excursion (+ port displacement for ported systems).

40-300hz is the punch/chestkick frequencies (drums, guitar rifts, dance beats, explosions etc).
That region is mostly efficiency-limited/power-limited.
Again that would be number of coils x watts x efficiency x cone area (that's not really how the math works but that's the simplified version.)

The more cones you have, the more efficient the subwoofer-system becomes (3db per doubling), it also gives you more total power handling (another 3db per doubling, that of course requires supporting amplifiers.)

Going from 6 to 8 is an improvement, and going from 90db/w/m to 98db/w/m is another improvement. Somewhere around 8-10db-ish gain at the higher frequencies.

Adding more cones also lowers excursion and heat for a given SPL, which also lowers distortion. All 3 are good things.
That's why I bought 16 PA-460's, it's a boat load of really efficient drivers with 8kW rms & 16kW of burst handling.
It lowers heat, distortion, excursion while also melting your skin off without breaking the bank. Win-Win.
It was also really compact. Two boxes of 20x20x76 octal-opposed sealed. It fits hidden behind my front speakers, and I have it eq'ed to single digits (although it does play louder mid-bass if you keep it native, or even infrasonically filtered.)
I guess it doesn't help that my current room is a mid-bass blackhole it seems. I basically had to out-muscle the room with pure brute-force!

If everyone had 16 PA-460's in that configuration there would be a whole lot less people feeling the need to upgrade, let me tell you!
It is louder than 4 VBSS's at any frequency or tuning.
As I've said many times, if you actually give it 8kW rms you can't even hear a pair of 108db/w/m SEOS tweeters when given 2x 200watts rms, it's beyond overkill in all but the largest spaces or the most deaf of bassheads.

I don't think I ever given it more than 1/4th power, even when I'm bumping tunes at 130db+ at 10ft back.

If 8 LaVoce's don't cut it for you, then there is probably something wrong with your gain structure, filtering and EQ configurations. (Or you are sitting in a giant mid-bass room-null...)

All high excursion subwoofers sound "slow" because they often have high moving-mass, high inductance and low-efficiency topologies/motors. They are optimized for generating earthquakes rather than drum strikes.

Sounds like you need more woofer and less sub-woofer, which doesn't surprise me at-all considering that 95% of music and movies is >35hz (the meat and potatoes region.)

1-30hz makes up less than 1-5% of music and 5-10% of movies. Not only is it rare, but it's also infrequent and fleeting at the same time.

1-15hz is basically for the 1%er's club or the wine connoisseurs of bassheads. It's really expensive and consumes a large amount of floor space. It's chasing pots of gold at the ends of rainbows.
All your excursion and floor space, are belong.
It's the wine cellar and pool with the all-glass flooring, Hefner style. 😂
 

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I only had 1 UM in my setup but it provided very little tactile midbass despite what an SPL chart says - with my limited knowledge I'm wondering how much an SPL chart says about tactile bass which I'm guessing is what the OP is looking fore. 2 PA-460s destroroyed 1 UM in the midbass region but the UM hit the low note much stronger.

I have two SAN214.50s and just built two SAF184.03s in Devastators and they pound pretty good. I still have to mess around with these more to make a good comparison but 2 SAF hit pretty hard in the midbass area bridged on my Crown XLS-2002 (The NX6000 should power 2 fine). You might consider starting with 4-SAN214.50s but then again that's close to the cost of 8 SAFs. I've no experience with sealed though.
 

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...Sounds like you need more woofer and less sub-woofer, which doesn't surprise me at-all considering that 95% of music and movies is >35hz (the meat and potatoes region.)

1-30hz makes up less than 1-5% of music and 5-10% of movies. Not only is it rare, but it's also infrequent and fleeting at the same time...
I think most people (myself included) don't really understand what frequencies are generated from some bass notes. It wasn't until this year I realized many low notes I thought were below 20Hz were actually a bit higher. Many here would likely be surprised doing an A/B comparison watching movies with a UM and a good Pro audio driver.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
I’m new with rew,have a umik and a minidsp2*4 hd.This is how the FR in room looks like .
black is subs raw
light green is with a bit EQ
red is submains crossed at 250
green is submains at 80
can please anybody explain why is that drop at 75Hz when cross the mains at 80,I think don’t understand correctly the crossover region.And this nulls at above 65 and 100, is that the midbass room problem?
 

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Discussion Starter #16
How about you stick with stating the frequency range you're looking to focus on. "quicker,punchier,precise" means very little, as those terms are very subjective. Why are you against mixing the UM18-22 with pro drivers? Define reasonable.

As already stated, those pro drivers will obviously play under 20hz, but will do so with much less output (3db to 6db) than the UM18-22.
Don’t want to mix because I invest a lot of time in realizing the SBA and for the function of it it’s not indicated to mix drivers.See a SBA build here
I know that quik,punchy,precise can be subjective in audio, but for me the UMs are definitely not quick or precise.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Surprised you can't get enough punch out of 8 UM18. Go buy 8 NSW6021 if you are looking to burn some cash, slightly better low end and much better midbass
I’m sure that can get allot of punch from them if boosting,already try that,but it’s not the kind of punching I‘m looking for😊I’m looking for the punch that you get on rock concerts or in the club when you stay near the speakers.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
What is your crossover set to your speakers? 8 UM18s should have plenty of clean midbass. I mean you are closing in on 140 dB of midbass, must be a setup problem.
The bed channels are crossed at 80 and the ceilling at 120.Don’t know if it is a setup or room problem,put some FR pics above.My bed channel speaker are also pro style drivers,Tannoy dual concentric,ad I guess and hope that the pro sub drivers will be a better match with the Tannoys,maybe I’m wrong.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
I still have to mess around with these more to make a good comparison but 2 SAF hit pretty hard in the midbass area bridged on my Crown XLS-2002 (The NX6000 should power 2 fine).
How is the build quality on the saf184.03? Want to go with this because they‘re fit in the cabs that I have,just build another two and that’s it,can’t accommodate any more behind the screen 😉
 
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