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I have a Sony STR-DG 720 now coupled with a Jamo 3.1 system and Velo 1210 sub. I will be upgrading EVERYTHING in the near future, but that near future might take a year or two. I dont really have any issues with the Jamo's and the Velodyne hits just as good as it did 10 years ago. However, after reading countless threads on here, I feel like I am missing somethings when watching a movie or TV.


I guess what I am asking is, what flaws would be revealed first if I upgraded the other component. Sony AVR to say a quality Denon or Onkyo with Audessy? Or better speakers say Monitor Audio RS line or Ascend Acoustics or something along those lines.
 

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I belong to the "upgrade speakers first" camp. Unless your receiver is really under-powered for your setup, changing electronics will have limited effect on overall sound quality. Changing speakers can have a very noticible effect on SQ.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ratm /forum/post/18138511


... what flaws would be revealed first if I upgraded the other component.

I wouldn't expect flaws to be revealed, though I suppose it's possible. Since your receiver is capable of driving additional speakers, you'd probably get the most noticeable improvement with additional or new speakers.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ratm /forum/post/18138511


However, after reading countless threads on here, I feel like I am missing somethings when watching a movie or TV.

Reading threads is useless for determining what you might be missing. Time to listen to other set ups and hear what you might be missing. You might find nothing is missing. But I'd put money on room treatments, and set up. . .
 

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My experience over many years brings me to these priorities:
  1. speakers
  2. room treatments
  3. preamp/processor
  4. source (DVD player, TT, etc.)
  5. amps
  6. power management
  7. interconnects
  8. speaker wire
  9. snake oil


Those last few (7–9) are mainly for when you really don't having anything better to worry about.



If you're going the receiver route, then
  1. speakers
  2. room treatments
  3. receiver
  4. source (DVD, TT, etc.)
  5. power management
  6. interconnects
  7. speaker wire
  8. snake oil
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by hd_newbie /forum/post/18139732


so, are you saying electronics are more important than the room?

Yep! Room treatment won't add the latest lossless codec processing to your system. Room treatment won't do much for your video processing. Room treatment makes a crappy substitute for a phono preamp in my experience. And room treatment won't do anything for a low end receiver struggling to drive a difficult load in those speakers you just had to have.


So rather than get all rabid about the "most important" single thing...I approach it as a system design issue.

1) Find the speakers with a sound you love. This is totally subjective.

2.) Find electronics that will drive your speaker's electrical load at volumes you enjoy and provide all of the features you need or want for switching and signal processing audio and video sources.

3.) Set up your system in your room the way you want to use it. Then listen. Then measure.

4.) Now you can address "room issues" if indeed you have any. At least now you can deal with specific issues relating to the interaction of specific equipment, in specific locations, within your room.


I suppose you would recommend rushing out to buy a bunch of audiophile approved paraphernalia to glue on the walls with no idea of speaker placement or number or performance of individual units. That seems a bit bass ackwards to me but feel free to pursue system design any way you see fit. Or perhaps you're advocating a generic approach to room treatment? A "one size fits all" room interaction problems concept. I don't buy that. While I agree that room interaction & transducers are arguably the 1st & 2nd biggest influence (pick one) on what you actually hear, I put electronics first in the selection process only from a feature and compatibility standpoint with the thought that until you know what you're dealing with, you can't solve the "problems" with crap tacked on the walls.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Magnefied /forum/post/18141597


Yep! Room treatment won't add the latest lossless codec processing to your system.

Any $500 receiver and/or blu-ray player decodes lossless audio these days. There is no need to spend anymore than that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Magnefied /forum/post/18141597


Room treatment won't do much for your video processing.

This is not relevant to the question. OP wants to compare the: Cheap processor with expensive speakers combination against the cheap speakers with expensive processor combination. Video processing is over-the-topic. Nevertheless, I must say most blu-ray players are better scalers than processors since scaling is an after-thought in AVRs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Magnefied /forum/post/18141597


And room treatment won't do anything for a low end receiver struggling to drive a difficult load in those speakers you just had to have.

We do not know the listening distance from speakers, efficiency rating and impedence of speakers, and the room size. Thus, it would be inaccurate to assume a low-end receiver won't be able to drive them. It may or it may not, depending on the variables I mentioned. I usually recommend to get the cheapest processor with adequate power to meet your needs and a bit extra for headroom. However, we do not know OP's needs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Magnefied /forum/post/18141597


So rather than get all rabid about the "most important" single thing...I approach it as a system design issue.

1) Find the speakers with a sound you love. This is totally subjective.

2.) Find electronics that will drive your speaker's electrical load at volumes you enjoy and provide all of the features you need or want for switching and signal processing audio and video sources.

3.) Set up your system in your room the way you want to use it. Then listen. Then measure.

4.) Now you can address "room issues" if indeed you have any. At least now you can deal with specific issues relating to the interaction of specific equipment, in specific locations, within your room.

Your list is upside down since most of what we hear is room. Average speakers in a room with good response are more than likely to sound better than high-end speakers in a room with poor response.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Magnefied /forum/post/18141597


I suppose you would recommend rushing out to buy a bunch of audiophile approved paraphernalia to glue on the walls with no idea of speaker placement or number or performance of individual units. That seems a bit bass ackwards to me but feel free to pursue system design any way you see fit. Or perhaps you're advocating a generic approach to room treatment? A "one size fits all" room interaction problems concept. I don't buy that.

Where did I say any of that? Feel free to quote me. That being said, OP will get the most returns for his investment by improving his room's response. Speakers are of secondary importance. Electronics? As long as they are not broken and provide adequate power, nah.
 

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Speakers, Speakers, Speakers. I've seen total POS HTIB systems sound decent when good speakers are connected. A lot better than the sound of a high end AVR hooked to the HTIB speakers. Speakers are the ONLY thing that makes sound, the rest is electrical processing. Yes the high end AVR can do all the codecs, but I'd rather have a 2ch system with good speakers than a 7 channel system with cheap speakers.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by hd_newbie /forum/post/18141767


Any $500 receiver and/or blu-ray player decodes lossless audio these days. There is no need to spend anymore than that.

Really? That's great news! So that $500 receiver will drive an array of 7 Magnepans or Theils, provide a phono preamp, switching for all my source components, surround processing in every format I care about, and any generic piece of equipment will do because none of this has much impact on the sound I'll actually hear. It's all the room. Interesting point of view.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hd_newbie /forum/post/18141767


This is not relevant to the question. OP wants to compare the: Cheap processor with expensive speakers combination against the cheap speakers with expensive processor combination. Video processing is over-the-topic. Nevertheless, I must say most blu-ray players are better scalers than processors since scaling is an after-thought in AVRs.

OP also did not ask about room acoustics. But as we've already determined video performance is an irrelevant consideration because only the room matters and any equipment choice will be overshadowed by the room no matter the intended use of the room.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hd_newbie /forum/post/18141767


We do not know the listening distance from speakers, efficiency rating and impedence of speakers, and the room size. Thus, it would be inaccurate to assume a low-end receiver won't be able to drive them. It may or it may not, depending on the variables I mentioned. I usually recommend to get the cheapest processor with adequate power to meet your needs and a bit extra for headroom. However, we do not know OP's needs.

The point was that you need to select equipment that works well together and covers all your intended uses regardless of whether that's a bunch of 8 ohm speakers with a resistive load and 95dB sensitivity or a room full of Apogee ribbons that cook amplifiers with a reactive impedance and 85db sensitivity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hd_newbie /forum/post/18141767


Your list is upside down since most of what we hear is room. Average speakers in a room with good response are more than likely to sound better than high-end speakers in a room with poor response.

The room will make a big contribution to the sound but it will not turn a Klipsh HTIB into a system that can reach 20Hz with authority and accuracy or belt out silky smooth treble like a ribbon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hd_newbie /forum/post/18141767


Where did I say any of that? Feel free to quote me. That being said, OP will get the most returns for his investment by improving his room's response. Speakers are of secondary importance. Electronics? As long as they are not broken and provide adequate power, nah.

I disagree. Get the speakers you want. Get the gear to support the speakers and your overall AV needs. Place it all. Then and only then work with the room.


Are you arguing that the OP should simply grab the aforementioned Klipsch HTIB and any generic cheap receiver for $1000 total and plow $3,000 into room treatments?


I would argue that he would be a lot happier with the speakers he likes, the equipment that suits his needs, AND a room without serious issues.


Dude, you seem like a newly converted religious zealot. It is the room and only the room. There can be nothing before the room. The room is our salvation and our holy quest. You must be a newbie.
 

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In order of importance: First: Speakers, Second: Room treatments, last: AVR.

List is for best sound, not best bragging rights. Not everyone has the same priority.


Fortunately diy room treatments are quite reasonable in cost. High quality made units actually still a best buy for sound vs dollar.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Magnefied /forum/post/18141597


Yep! Room treatment won't add the latest lossless codec processing to your system. Room treatment won't do much for your video processing. Room treatment makes a crappy substitute for a phono preamp in my experience. And room treatment won't do anything for a low end receiver struggling to drive a difficult load in those speakers you just had to have.


So rather than get all rabid about the "most important" single thing...I approach it as a system design issue.

1) Find the speakers with a sound you love. This is totally subjective.

2.) Find electronics that will drive your speaker's electrical load at volumes you enjoy and provide all of the features you need or want for switching and signal processing audio and video sources.

3.) Set up your system in your room the way you want to use it. Then listen. Then measure.

4.) Now you can address "room issues" if indeed you have any. At least now you can deal with specific issues relating to the interaction of specific equipment, in specific locations, within your room.


I suppose you would recommend rushing out to buy a bunch of audiophile approved paraphernalia to glue on the walls with no idea of speaker placement or number or performance of individual units. That seems a bit bass ackwards to me but feel free to pursue system design any way you see fit. Or perhaps you're advocating a generic approach to room treatment? A "one size fits all" room interaction problems concept. I don't buy that. While I agree that room interaction & transducers are arguably the 1st & 2nd biggest influence (pick one) on what you actually hear, I put electronics first in the selection process only from a feature and compatibility standpoint with the thought that until you know what you're dealing with, you can't solve the "problems" with crap tacked on the walls.

Quite clearly you have never measured the frequency response of an audio system in a room before.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisWiggles /forum/post/18143103


Quite clearly you have never measured the frequency response of an audio system in a room before.

Why because you disagree? Please expand on your quite obvious revelation. I'm quite interested to hear your quite obviously knowledgeable opinion quite soon.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Magnefied /forum/post/18143217


Why because you disagree? Please expand on your quite obvious revelation. I'm quite interested to hear your quite obviously knowledgeable opinion quite soon.

If we consider the magnitude of the problems (distortion) introduced by even relatively mediocre speakers, a an average room will be vastly worse.


Placing the room as last of things to consider in terms of audio performance is quite ridiculous. A regular, untreated room will often have swings in FR that are more than 10db, often 20 or more db swings in frequency response.


You must be considering some horrible loudspeakers to match that kind of damage and distortion.


The room matters, and it matters a lot.


A man who spends money on the room and the speakers first is a smart man who knows a thing or two about what actually impacts the system's performance. Then move on to improving other things, which are far FAR less significant in audible impact than speakers and room.


There's nothing "audiohile paraphanalia" about it. It's physics. You may recognize that as a branch of science. Room treatments need not be expensive, but spending a few hundred dollars on room treatments is certain to yield FAR more significant impacts on the system performance than that money spend on electronics. In fact, I might go so far as to say that you could spend an infinite amount of money on electronics and not have the same impact.


The laws of physics matter. Simple as that.
 
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