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He is adding an HD Fury. As for Deep Color, I would have that turned off. The LS10000 does not have BT2020 support, so I am not sure how good the color mapping will be.
Without a conversion mode on the Epson you'll need to calibrate for REC2020 if you want to take proper advantage of the native REC2020 color points.
 

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So the LS10000 is able to accept SDR+BT2020 and display WCG without a firmware update? Does the Deep Color indicator in the Info menu show that it's processing 10 or 12 bits? Does it look noticeably different if you turn off the Digital Cinema mode on the LS10000 or disable BT2020 with the HDFury EDID codes?

Thanks for helping to explore all this.

-Darrell
Hi Darrell, I have no information about deep colour and this was not referred to by my dealer. Ditto to your other questions at the moment. As others have said, it will be important to calibrate the WCG profile in the LS10000 to the new BT2020 colour space. A firmware update would be welcome of course but who knows.
 

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Interesting news.

But as for the older JVC, even with a HDfury, can the Epson EH-LS10000 understand the points out of the DCI colorspace?

If yes, then that's great news, everyone get an hdfury (which I will receive tomorrow) and calibrate to REC2020 using the 75% saturation patterns. :)

If no, what does the Epson make of the points out of the DCI colorspace? :rolleyes:
 

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Interesting news.

But as for the older JVC, even with a HDfury, can the Epson EH-LS10000 understand the points out of the DCI colorspace?

If yes, then that's great news, everyone get an hdfury (which I will receive tomorrow) and calibrate to REC2020 using the 75% saturation patterns. :)

If no, what does the Epson make of the points out of the DCI colorspace? :rolleyes:
Yep. that is the point I was trying to make. If the projector does not have Rec2020 support, it will not be able to map those colors.
 

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Interesting news.

But as for the older JVC, even with a HDfury, can the Epson EH-LS10000 understand the points out of the DCI colorspace?

If yes, then that's great news, everyone get an hdfury (which I will receive tomorrow) and calibrate to REC2020 using the 75% saturation patterns. :)

If no, what does the Epson make of the points out of the DCI colorspace? :rolleyes:
I'm not 100% sure on how it's actually packed, but my understanding is that Rec.2020 isn't formatted any differently than Rec.709, it's just that the numbers have different meaning. What I mean is, the code for 100% red Rec.709 and 100% red Rec.2020 are exactly the same, but they obviously have very different meanings. With HDMI 2.0a, the AVI Infoframe tells the display how to interpret the input (eg RS400/500/600). Without it (eg RS49/X500/LS10000/etc) it's up to the user to provide the correct calibration, as well as switch to the correct mode.

On the JVCs, you can create a gamut target using Rec.2020 primaries, and then with the autocal software load it, and then the projector knows how to map Rec.2020 coded color to it's native gamut. Without such a calibration, what you end up doing is interpreting the Rec.2020 gamut as Rec.709, meaning everything will be significantly undersaturated.

I know Manni has Rec.2020 input working on his X500 which is in the same boat as the LS10000, not having any native Rec.2020 mode. Even the new JVCs are basically the same, they needed to have the Rec.2020 profile loaded via the Autocal software, however the difference with them is they have HDMI 2.0a and can thus automatically switch to the Rec.2020 profile based on AVI Infoframe.

I haven't been able to try with my RS49 (I made the Rec.2020 profile) since the Samsung K8500 won't output Rec.2020 in an HDMI 1.4 compatible format, Manni has the Pannasonic player which is more flexible.
 

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Stanger89, I was under the same impression, but Follgot had put some doubts in my mind:

I never said to calibrate only saturation. You need to calibrate to rec2020. Forget the dci. You need the grayscale on D65, and tweak saturation, hue and lightness until you get the 75% of rec2020 correctly. Then it will track linearly (hopefully) between the white point on d65 and the 75% sat of rec2020. Obviously 100% of rec2020 will not be correct and most probably on the same location as 75%sat.

Only problem is that I forgot that the 1000es does not have a cms...


But it should work fine with the Epson Eh-Ls10000 for example ! ;-)

Then I got you wrong. :)

But from my understanding this doesn't work, either. Please take a look at this diagram.



One can change the primaries only inside the native gamut which means it must be smaller after calibration. The white arrows show the saturation line inside BT.2020. The grey triangle is a calibration from a native DCI-P3 gamut to undersaturated BT.2020. The shaded area shows the values that are out of gamut and can not be accessed by input values.

A 3D LUT processor connected to the projector does a different thing. It "extracts" the DCI-P3 values from BT.2020 and maps them to the complete range of input values. That means it assumes that the display device maps it 1:1 to its gamut. Thus projector's whole gamut can be accessed. :)
 

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Interesting news.

But as for the older JVC, even with a HDfury, can the Epson EH-LS10000 understand the points out of the DCI colorspace?

If yes, then that's great news, everyone get an hdfury (which I will receive tomorrow) and calibrate to REC2020 using the 75% saturation patterns. :)

If no, what does the Epson make of the points out of the DCI colorspace? :rolleyes:
I would imagine if you select the DCI color mode it will. But as noted before, you'll need to calibrate for REC2020 not P3 as there's no consumer based P3 content out there on UHD blu-ray, bluray or DVD.
 

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I would imagine if you select the DCI color mode it will. But as noted before, you'll need to calibrate for REC2020 not P3 as there's no consumer based P3 content out there on UHD blu-ray, bluray or DVD.
That I know. See post above.
 

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I would imagine if you select the DCI color mode it will. But as noted before, you'll need to calibrate for REC2020 not P3 as there's no consumer based P3 content out there on UHD blu-ray, bluray or DVD.
Just so I understand (correct me if I'm wrong), yes rec2020 is the only consumer transport format for WCG, but the actual WCG content on most UHD BDs has been converted from a master that uses the DCI-P3 color space, as this is the current standard for commercial theaters. While rec2020 is capable of a much wider color space than DCI-P3, currently only the DCI-P3 space within that format is being used.
 

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Just so I understand (correct me if I'm wrong), yes rec2020 is the only consumer transport format for WCG, but the actual WCG content on most UHD BDs has been converted from a master that uses the DCI-P3 color space, as this is the current standard for commercial theaters. While rec2020 is capable of a much wider color space than DCI-P3, currently only the DCI-P3 space within that format is being used.
Correct, but the color point information to reach the same saturation/luminance is not the same between P3 and REC2020. This is why you calibrate for REC2020 and not P3. You'll get incorrect color if you calibrate for P3. What we assume right now is that the studios are simply transforming P3 color points to REC2020 ones and encoding them that way for UHD BDs. We all assume that there's no DI master that's been graded past P3 to REC2020 at this point in time, but because they've been converted to REC2020 points for UHD BD you need to calibrate for REC2020 to get it looking proper.
 

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Was the studio's rec 2020 (container) on UHD BD more for future proofing? The hope being there is native rec 2020 content some day? I seem to recall that being shown on a UHD presentation slide.

If not, I cannot see why they just didn't use pure DCI-P3 on the disc given that's what displays and projectors can support today. Manufacturers can keep working towards 100% DCI.
 

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Was the studio's rec 2020 (container) on UHD BD more for future proofing? The hope being there is native rec 2020 content some day? I seem to recall that being shown on a UHD presentation slide.

If not, I cannot see why they just didn't use pure DCI-P3 on the disc given that's what displays and protectors can support today. Manufacturers can keep working towards 100% DCI.
Yeah, it was presented that way. The whole format was created to be around for the "long haul". That's why they also allow for up a bit depth of up to 16bits as well and if I remember correctly it also supports 4:4:4 chroma subsampling. Maybe at some point we'll start to see 12 bit video!
 

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Stanger89, I was under the same impression, but Follgot had put some doubts in my mind:
That post doesn't seem to contradict anything. You calibrate for Rec.2020, and try to get the response as linear as possible out however saturated your display will go. You tell your calibration software to target Rec.2020 and try to minimize dEs within the capabilities of the display.

The point I was trying to make is Rec.2020 is not some special data format on the HDMI cable, it's just color with values representing 0-100% saturated. The difference between Rec.709 and Rec.2020 is in what those percentages mean (it's not actually stored as percentages, but it's easiest to think of it that way). 100% for Rec.2020 has different, wider xy coordinates than for Rec.709. If your display has enough control in the CMS, and your source is able to output Rec.2020 color, it should be possible to get things to work. The only thing HDMI 2.0a adds is the AVI Infoframe to signal the display which calibration to use.

Also, a display that intentionally supports Rec.2020 input, should (be able to) do a better job mapping the wide gamut to it's capabilities, than just truncating that gamut like you probably will on these older displays with just a basic CMS.
 

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Good, then we all have the same understanding. :)

Then this should not be a surprise that with Hdfury integral set up to REC2020 SDR coupled with the Panasonic 4K blu-ray player, and a nice calibration to REC2020 on the Epson EH-LS10000, we get the right color on the screen.

Can you calibrate to 75% saturation of REC2020 on the new chromapure 3.0? I still need to get my update.
 

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BY the way, I had the same discussion on the Sony VW1000ES thread at the time. Here was the discussion:

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-di...000-usd-msrp/1359018-sony-vpl-vw1000-461.html


Hi Billy Bob,

Great ! can you please advise, what exactly you use or adjust from the furys option?
Get mine today and have faded colors, I will try again to get a proper picture with WCG at 2020 and without HDR

Greetings dirk
Hi Dirk,

it's normal that you get undersaturated color since you provide thanks to the HDfury the raw rec2020 colorspace to your projector.

Since the current movies on 4K blur-ray are only graded with the DCI-P3 colorspace (about 75% saturation of REC2020) but saved into the bigger REC2020, you get a mismatch with the colorspace you are using on your Sony VW1000ES.

But there is a solution: :) you need to calibrate your projector to the REC2020 colorspace (white D65). Of course you will not get the 100% saturation right, but what you want is to to calibrate properly the 75% saturation pattern to about 75% saturation of REC2020.

That way, when the HDfury send over the REC2020 data, your projector will interpret it correctly and the color will be nicely saturated as they should be.

For the HDR, you should desactivate it because there is no way to get the right HDR gamma curve with your projector, especially since the HDR maximal brightness target can change widly between 4K blurays.

Viele Grüße,
Anna&Flo aus Deutschland! ;)
Calibrating saturation is not enough to get acourate colors. Hue of the primaries differ much between BT.2020 and DCI-P3. When you put a line between white point and the primaries one notices that green and red are rotated. Changing saturation doesn't fix that. Only a 3D LUT can convert the color space correctly.
I never said to calibrate only saturation. You need to calibrate to rec2020. Forget the dci. You need the grayscale on D65, and tweak saturation, hue and lightness until you get the 75% of rec2020 correctly. Then it will track linearly (hopefully) between the white point on d65 and the 75% sat of rec2020. Obviously 100% of rec2020 will not be correct and most probably on the same location as 75%sat.

Only problem is that I forgot that the 1000es does not have a cms...


But it should work fine with the Epson Eh-Ls10000 for example ! ;-)
Then I got you wrong. :)

But from my understanding this doesn't work, either. Please take a look at this diagram.



One can change the primaries only inside the native gamut which means it must be smaller after calibration. The white arrows show the saturation line inside BT.2020. The grey triangle is a calibration from a native DCI-P3 gamut to undersaturated BT.2020. The shaded area shows the values that are out of gamut and can not be accessed by input values.

A 3D LUT processor connected to the projector does a different thing. It "extracts" the DCI-P3 values from BT.2020 and maps them to the complete range of input values. That means it assumes that the display device maps it 1:1 to its gamut. Thus projector's whole gamut can be accessed. :)
 

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Then this should not be a surprise that with Hdfury integral set up to REC2020 SDR coupled with the Panasonic 4K blu-ray player, and a nice calibration to REC2020 on the Epson EH-LS10000, we get the right color on the screen.
Even though the UB900/HDFury combination is able to supply SDR+BT2020 to the LS10000, I still don't understand how it can input the BT2020 format (ignoring calibration). I thought the only possible color formats for the LS10000 was rec709 and RGB formatted DCI-P3. Unless Epson provides a firmware update that adds the BT2020 input format, or the HDFury adds a new capability to convert BT2020 to RGB WCG (which they seem to be talking about), I thought we were still stuck.
 

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Checked out the Epson today and I liked it very much. My only complaint perhaps is it's a bit on the dark-ish side.
 

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Checked out the Epson today and I liked it very much. My only complaint perhaps is it's a bit on the dark-ish side.
That was supposedly a 0.8 screen so if you are rocking 1.3/4 you are looking at 50% more light on your screen... I thought it was a bit dim too.
 

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That was supposedly a 0.8 screen so if you are rocking 1.3/4 you are looking at 50% more light on your screen... I thought it was a bit dim too.
true, which is why I feel its a cracking machine I really liked it. Blacks are as good as the JVC for sure. Definitely good value.
 
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