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Hi All,

May I ask you for suggestions on how to improve on washed-out blacks I am getting from my Epson 3200 (TW-7000 in EU)?

Please have a look at the attached images. My room has white walls and ceiling and there is a glass facade on left hand side. I can not change anything about this unfortunately, its not possible to paint the room with darker colors. 
Image size is 100 inch diagonal. I am currently projecting on a white wall but plan to get a screen.


1.)  Would grey screen help to improve the blacks? Any particular materials / parametres I should considers for this?

2.)   Any calibration tips that may help with the blacks? (I am using the out-of-box settings as I have zero experience with calibration)

3.)   Or - should I be considering returning this model and getting a different PJ, given my room conditions? My budget is £900-1400. I got this one for £850 which is a nice price I'd say, but not sure if the washed-out blacks is the reason...


Your feedback would be greatly appreciated, I like the colors and the resolution, but the blacks seem to be ruining the viewing experience as it somewhat prevents full immersion. Or maybe I am just driving myself nuts constantly judging the dark areas performance :) 

Thank you,
Daniel
 

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The 3200 has very poor native contrast so stepping up to the 3800 should help some. A gray screen is also a step in the right direction but you really need some thing with ALR properties with those light colored surfaces compounding the issue with them being so close too the screen. The formula for how much gain you need, required viewing angle, projector mount location and distance all need to be taken into account to avoid artifacts/hot spots. I am in the camp where projectors should be in treated rooms so I can't be of any farther help.
 

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Hi All,

May I ask you for suggestions on how to improve on washed-out blacks I am getting from my Epson 3200 (TW-7000 in EU)?

Please have a look at the attached images. My room has white walls and ceiling and there is a glass facade on left hand side. I can not change anything about this unfortunately, its not possible to paint the room with darker colors. 
Image size is 100 inch diagonal. I am currently projecting on a white wall but plan to get a screen.


1.)  Would grey screen help to improve the blacks? Any particular materials / parametres I should considers for this?

2.)   Any calibration tips that may help with the blacks? (I am using the out-of-box settings as I have zero experience with calibration)

3.)   Or - should I be considering returning this model and getting a different PJ, given my room conditions? My budget is £900-1400. I got this one for £850 which is a nice price I'd say, but not sure if the washed-out blacks is the reason...


Your feedback would be greatly appreciated, I like the colors and the resolution, but the blacks seem to be ruining the viewing experience as it somewhat prevents full immersion. Or maybe I am just driving myself nuts constantly judging the dark areas performance :) 

Thank you,
Daniel
Hi,

you may try checking on the menus if HDMI signal is set to "extended" or "limited". Usually, setting it to "limited" will quickly give you the impression of darker blacks (at the expense of the range of grays) although the darker areas will remain exactly the same if you pay attention. This also depends on how the source HDMI signal is set. And yes, calibration can help, but not as much as treating the room. As for darker screens, I often find they kill the colors a bit. The good ones cost a fortune.

But, really, the problem is the room, especially side walls and ceiling. There are solutions besides painting (which I often don't understand why people want to), such as black curtains (even cheap polyester or felt curtains will help, but black velvet will make the greatest effect). The same curtain rods can hold an horizontal curtain to cover the ceiling too (depending on the room's width). It may seem extreme, but, if done well, it's the best solution for both movie and regular room use.

Check this thread: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-digital-hi-end-projectors-3-000-usd-msrp/1465053-blacker-theater-better-image-257.html


But I should conclude by saying that, even in a treated room, that projector won't do miracles regarding dark tones.
 

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Hi All,

May I ask you for suggestions on how to improve on washed-out blacks I am getting from my Epson 3200 (TW-7000 in EU)?

Please have a look at the attached images. My room has white walls and ceiling and there is a glass facade on left hand side. I can not change anything about this unfortunately, its not possible to paint the room with darker colors.
Image size is 100 inch diagonal. I am currently projecting on a white wall but plan to get a screen.


1.) Would grey screen help to improve the blacks? Any particular materials / parametres I should considers for this?

2.) Any calibration tips that may help with the blacks? (I am using the out-of-box settings as I have zero experience with calibration)

3.) Or - should I be considering returning this model and getting a different PJ, given my room conditions? My budget is £900-1400. I got this one for £850 which is a nice price I'd say, but not sure if the washed-out blacks is the reason...


Your feedback would be greatly appreciated, I like the colors and the resolution, but the blacks seem to be ruining the viewing experience as it somewhat prevents full immersion. Or maybe I am just driving myself nuts constantly judging the dark areas performance :)

Thank you,
Daniel

Black level is the most difficult and the most expensive item to achieve on projectors.

The first issue is the wall reflections.
https://www.facebook.com/projectiondream/videos/1692721894385217/



Secondly that projector has very poor native contrast. It sits ~400:1 native, not sure how much the iris helps.
In the HC3800/TW7100, native contrast has been measured between 1700 and 2200:1, with using the iris on the most aggressive setting resulting in ~35 000:1.

4K DLP projectors are worse, with most native contrast ~700:1, dynamic up to 2000-3000:1.

Something like a TW9400 has native ~4500:1 and dynamic ~37 000:1.

A JVC can have over 10 000 or 40 000 native contrast, and up to 200 000:1 in some models.

Contrast is the difference between the deepest black and whitest white. The types of contrast mentioned above is called ON/OFF or Native contrast, which measures the black and white. The way projectors usually achieve high native contrast is by having a low black floor, not increasing lumens.

Contrast in regular scenes however is more difficult to measure.
First, you have to determine how bright the content you watch is.
A study in 57 films:
http://projectiondream.com/en/movie-brightness-adl-contrast-measurements/

As you can see, most films are not bright.

Although not perfect, patterns has been used to try to determine the performance of intrascene contrast with different projectors. This article tests three types of projectors with native contrast, dynamic not included:
http://projectiondream.com/en/movie-brightness-adl-contrast-measurements/

However in for example a scene with ADL of 5%, just because the contrast required would be less, does not mean that a lower CR model will look the same, and that's because of the lower black floor of the better model. The lower CR model might be capable of producing some kind of contrast, but it's elevated black floor will show up.



Even in a non treated room, a projector with good native contrast will look in low brightness scenes because there is little light that reflects around the room and wash out the picture.


Try using the dynamic iris. This will help in low ADL scenes, the screenshots in the first post are not low ADL however.


There might be something wrong with the settings. Besides colorspace (Limited/Full) run a calibration test to determine the black and white floor:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/68-digital-projectors-under-3-000-usd-msrp/3090344-epson-hc-3200-3800-revealed-15.html#post59005708
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/68-digital-projectors-under-3-000-usd-msrp/3090344-epson-hc-3200-3800-revealed-16.html#post59006190


A grey screen will help with reflections, but only in a small amount.

An ALR screen can do more, but they require to be placed at a certain distance to avoid hotspots, ~1.9x throw ratio (screen width). So for an 100" screen that's 420cm. Of course for if you want a larger screen then the distance increases.

ALR screens that don't have hotspots and other artifacts at throw ratios of ~1.5x are very expensive. The alternative is paint mixes with ALR properties that can be customized, and can be applied on a smooth wall or white screen. Problem is the artifacting is caused in part by how well the screen rejecting ambient light. If it artifacts less, then it does not fight ambient light that well.

Some ALR fabrics are sold separately, so if you can build a wooden frame it would make it cheaper.


I assume you're in the EU?

In that you can get some used projectors with an ok contrast like the TW9200/9300, JVC models, or some 1080p Sony HW series like the HW40ES. The Sonys have ~4000:1 native contrast, but only some have an iris.
The Epson TW9300 only has a 10GB HDMI, here's the difference to a 18GB HDMI like on newer Epson models:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/68-digital-projectors-under-3-000-usd-msrp/3152120-building-home-theater-benq-ht3550-projector-something-else.html#post59777804
 

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First thing I would do is adjust your brightness setting. Get brightness gray bar test image and adjust the brightness to get the best balance between white and black.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Thank you all for your kind suggestions!

So I understand from your replies that Gray screen will not help to boost the blacks?

I am looking at buying a drop-down screen. Could you suggest material properties most suitable for my setup?

Gray or White, 100inch, battery operated, for around £500?

Thanks

Daniel
 
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