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I had a Sharp XV-Z30000 and while the flicker and ghosting performance was perfect, dark scenes in 3D were lacking. I would much rather deal with some flicker (which goes away for me once I have the glasses turned on) and ghosting every once in a while to gain the huge contrast boost the JVC has during 3D playback.
Interesting how everyone is different with this. I am just the opposite of you. Any ghosting in particular kills 3d for me at this point (and flicker to a lesser degree) and I will gladly take lower contrast for truly ghost/flicker free 3d.
 

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I didn't realize it was 480hz on the Epson. Kudos to them. I'm glad to see they're pushing the envelope on that front. I completely agree regarding the contrast in 3D greatly impacting the overall experience. I had a Sharp XV-Z30000 and while the flicker and ghosting performance was perfect, dark scenes in 3D were lacking. I would much rather deal with some flicker (which goes away for me once I have the glasses turned on) and ghosting every once in a while to gain the huge contrast boost the JVC has during 3D playback. This really was a deal breaker for me on the Sharp. Then when I had the Runco LS-10i I contacted Runco to see if I could turn it into a LS-12i (3D version of the 10i) as it seems it's just a processing/IO board update. This would have been great except I didn't realize until after I asked Runco about the update the DI can only be used with 2D content. Another deal breaker. I just wish one company could make something like the Runco LS-5 (with a higher output bulb), a great DI and be 3D compatible. If that could come in at around $3500 street price that'd be killer.
So what did runco say is it upgradable to do 3d easy enough?
 

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This is my last post with any numbers. No matter what I say, it will be discounted as I'm not one of the chosen few.
When I posted my DCI lumens of 999 it was at d65. If I recalibrate DCI to the white point specified in ChromaPure (which is not d65) I still get 963 lumens. Also, I get 20fL for 100% white at this calibration on my 128" diag 1.78 screen. This is plenty bright enough for me, and I would probably choose to reduce it using the lens iris, but it won't be enough for the skeptics. Does anybody know for sure the white point 4K Blurays will use? So, my DCI lumen output is either 999 or 963 depending on the chosen white point.


Below is the gamut I measured with CP using i1Pro2. This is with only using RGB controls in the projector. I could get blue better, but what's the point? OK, shoot the messenger, but I'm done posting numbers.
I for one am very thankful for your previous posts with actual reading and the parameters around those numbers.
 

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Interesting how everyone is different with this. I am just the opposite of you. Any ghosting in particular kills 3d for me at this point (and flicker to a lesser degree) and I will gladly take lower contrast for truly ghost/flicker free 3d.
I agree but I want it all! Ghost-free and great contrast/black level in 3D. With no midrange (price) DLPs coming our way any longer there's not much chance we're going to see this happen, which from my point of view is depressing. Non-DLP can't get ghost-free images like DLP and DLP can't get contrast/black levels like the non-DLPs can. Since I have to compromise for 3D I'll take DLP. What if non-DLP refreshed at 720 or 960Hz instead of 240 or 480Hz? Is that a possibility and would it improve 3D ghosting?
 

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I agree but I want it all! Ghost-free and great contrast/black level in 3D. With no midrange (price) DLPs coming our way any longer there's not much chance we're going to see this happen, which from my point of view is depressing. Non-DLP can't get ghost-free images like DLP and DLP can't get contrast/black levels like the non-DLPs can. Since I have to compromise for 3D I'll take DLP. What if non-DLP refreshed at 720 or 960Hz instead of 240 or 480Hz? Is that a possibility and would it improve 3D ghosting?
That would be great of course, but until/if that day comes, like you, my DLP is staying put for 3d! Watching the highly 3d aggressive Lichtmond the other night, I kept thinking how hard my JVC would have choked with this title as the ghosting would have been terrible. I bet even the better/most recent non single chip DLPs would have distracting ghosting issues with this caliber of 3d. DLP has spoiled me in this area.
 

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I agree but I want it all! Ghost-free and great contrast/black level in 3D. With no midrange (price) DLPs coming our way any longer there's not much chance we're going to see this happen, which from my point of view is depressing. Non-DLP can't get ghost-free images like DLP and DLP can't get contrast/black levels like the non-DLPs can. Since I have to compromise for 3D I'll take DLP. What if non-DLP refreshed at 720 or 960Hz instead of 240 or 480Hz? Is that a possibility and would it improve 3D ghosting?
For LCD and LCoS it all comes down to the actual response time since the inability to fully transition every pixel between the right-left images during the blanking time is the source of the 3D crosstalk, A higher refresh rate in and of itself doesn't necessarily improve the response time. Increasing the blanking time can help reduce 3D crosstalk but at the expense of image brightness. It my understanding that with LCoS you can make the liquid crystal layer thinner which will improve the response time but at the expense of decreased contrast ratio. So there are a lot of trade-offs and most people won't want to give up any 2D performance to get a little lower 3D crosstalk.


DLP on the other hand as essentially zero response time. The micro mirrors are either in one of two states and the transition is so fast as to be of no consequence. So when using a DLP projector the only two possible sources of crosstalk are the active 3D glasses do not go fully opaque as they should or there is a sync. timing issue between the projector an the active 3D glasses (of course this assumes the is no crosstalk already in the 3D video source material).
 

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Isn't the average light loss in 3d once you factor in the glasses about 70-80%? That is what I remember always reading here from various tests/reports of different projectors/glasses combos and that is a much bigger number than 25% and certainly not comparable.

EDIT: Blee beat me to it.

I also don't see ~850 lumens being an issue for most people with reasonably sized screens, especially with a laser based projector that does not dim anywhere near a lamp based unit. Not to mention we are talking about an under $10, 000 machine which puts 850 lumens toward the higher end vs the competition in this range.
All of the JVC's are brighter than 850. All of the Sony projectors are brighter than 850. I guess a lot of my RS4910 customers are not wanting reasonable sized screens. Often times they are wanting AT screens 120" to 140" wide. Go ask Rich in the Falcon screen thread, what size scope screens he is selling, most. I remember I had a customer that ordered a 110" wide scope screen from Rich and customer returned the screen, because he wanted larger. Rich asked me to help him sell that screen, because he said most of his scope screen sales were for larger screens than that.

Most buyers of projectors of this class are not buying small screens. I have sold a lot of VW600's, VW350's, VW1000's, VW1000 B-stocks and some VW1100's. Sold screens for many of those buyers and worked with many of them with regards to FL they would get on their existing screens. People buying at this price point usually buy larger screens. Go ask in the VW1000 thread, their screen sizes. Those guys joke about Mark H's 110" screen being tiny. Those are the people that I am talking about that most likely will not be happy with the brightness of DCI. I am not saying that DCI is the same loss as 3D. I am saying the situation is much the same. I think second and third generation DCI projectors will be brighter than what we are getting now and this will be less of an issue.
 

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Valid points, but you could make the same argument with the LS10000 regarding how much we "know" at this point in time. I'd like to see someone like Zombie or cine4home quote some numbers on behind the glasses brightness if they ever get a chance. Both SXRD and Epson's R-LCD panels work similarly in that they refresh natively at 240hz (a big plus for 3D brightness and crosstalk reduction) and seem to have similar native response times which would indicate relatively similar performance with ghosting and flicker. I doubt 3D performance between the two would be drastically different and the extra brightness the Sony possesses should help overall. But the Epson could very well outperform the Sony in 3D. I'd just like to see someone do a more scientific approach. Zombie owns an 1100ES. Maybe he can give us some numbers about brightness loss behind the glasses?

Wasnt there something about the Epson is running at 480 hz ?


DV beat me :)
 

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This is my last post with any numbers. No matter what I say, it will be discounted as I'm not one of the chosen few.
When I posted my DCI lumens of 999 it was at d65. If I recalibrate DCI to the white point specified in ChromaPure (which is not d65) I still get 963 lumens. Also, I get 20fL for 100% white at this calibration on my 128" diag 1.78 screen. This is plenty bright enough for me, and I would probably choose to reduce it using the lens iris, but it won't be enough for the skeptics. Does anybody know for sure the white point 4K Blurays will use? So, my DCI lumen output is either 999 or 963 depending on the chosen white point.


Below is the gamut I measured with CP using i1Pro2. This is with only using RGB controls in the projector. I could get blue better, but what's the point? OK, shoot the messenger, but I'm done posting numbers.
Citation 4444

Please keep posting, you are one of the few, WHO actuel has facts and Real expericence with the LS10000 :). Thank you for that !

Dj
 

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That would be great of course, but until/if that day comes, like you, my DLP is staying put for 3d! Watching the highly 3d aggressive Lichtmond the other night, I kept thinking how hard my JVC would have choked with this title as the ghosting would have been terrible. I bet even the better/most recent non single chip DLPs would have distracting ghosting issues with this caliber of 3d. DLP has spoiled me in this area.
Actully the 1100 shows almost none ghosting with the lichtmond 2 disc ( but thats ONLY in the standard mode - not at High mode ,where some ghosting do show some times ) This is with the Xpand 105 glasses/ RF emitter, which is a good match with the 1100.

BTW. The fish scenes in Lichtmond 2 , Was very impressive and out in the room ( just like the seahorses(?) and the snake scenes i Sammy's )

Dj
 

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All of the JVC's are brighter than 850. All of the Sony projectors are brighter than 850. I guess a lot of my RS4910 customers are not wanting reasonable sized screens. Often times they are wanting AT screens 120" to 140" wide. Go ask Rich in the Falcon screen thread, what size scope screens he is selling, most. I remember I had a customer that ordered a 110" wide scope screen from Rich and customer returned the screen, because he wanted larger. Rich asked me to help him sell that screen, because he said most of his scope screen sales were for larger screens than that.

Most buyers of projectors of this class are not buying small screens. I have sold a lot of VW600's, VW350's, VW1000's, VW1000 B-stocks and some VW1100's. Sold screens for many of those buyers and worked with many of them with regards to FL they would get on their existing screens. People buying at this price point usually buy larger screens. Go ask in the VW1000 thread, their screen sizes. Those guys joke about Mark H's 110" screen being tiny. Those are the people that I am talking about that most likely will not be happy with the brightness of DCI. I am not saying that DCI is the same loss as 3D. I am saying the situation is much the same. I think second and third generation DCI projectors will be brighter than what we are getting now and this will be less of an issue.

Mike


I think he means 850 lumens in "DCI mode" and that can NO JVC do at all ;), IFAIK and even the 1100 dosnt do much more with the "DCI" filter on ( I think it takes about 40 % of the light output, but cant really remember, havnt meassurred it lately, maybe Z10K has ? ).


I run mine in the low lamp mode, which have about the same 40% light loss versus the high mode, so for me, I can just put it in the high mode, when using the DCI, and have about the same light output on the screen ( a "tiny" 110" wide 2.40:1 screen with probely a real 0.9 gain - a Clear Pix 2 AT screen ) :)


dj
 

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Actully the 1100 shows almost none ghosting with the lichtmond 2 disc ( but thats ONLY in the standard mode - not at High mode ,where some ghosting do show some times ) This is with the Xpand 105 glasses/ RF emitter, which is a good match with the 1100.

BTW. The fish scenes in Lichtmond 2 , Was very impressive and out in the room ( just like the seahorses(?) and the snake scenes i Sammy's )

Dj
Almost no ghosting for me is a far cry from NO ghosting, especially having to handicap the brightness to get there. No thanks!
 

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Toe;32231697[I said:
Almost no ghosting for me is a far cry from NO ghosting especial ly having to handicap the brightness to get there. No thanks!



Im with you on that :) ( sometimes I dream about a Sharp 30K :D ) - regarding the light, when ussing 3D, I use my second and smaller screen, - and a 2.8 gain screen, which is realistic about 1.9 gain where I sit, so it is okay, but still I would like it even brighter - a 15- 20 fL behind the glasses, would be nice :p , but I dont think the Sharp 30K can do that either or ? :(


dj
 

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Mike


I think he means 850 lumens in "DCI mode" and that can NO JVC do at all ;), IFAIK and even the 1100 dosnt do much more with the "DCI" filter on ( I think it takes about 40 % of the light output, but cant really remember, havnt meassurred it lately, maybe Z10K has ? ).


I run mine in the low lamp mode, which have about the same 40% light loss versus the high mode, so for me, I can just put it in the high mode, when using the DCI, and have about the same light output on the screen ( a "tiny" 110" wide 2.40:1 screen with probely a real 0.9 gain - a Clear Pix 2 AT screen ) :)


dj
That is my whole point. This is not a bash the Epson post. The Epson and the Sony have the same problem. If you have read all of my posts, I am talking about the lumens we get now with Rec709 vs what we will be getting with DCI if using the Epson or Sony VW1100. I was just saying many people are wanting and needing more lumens for their scope screens than the current projectors provide in 2D, Rec709. Those same people are not going to be happy with DCI if they will have even less lumens. I have several people that are actually buying screens that are too big for their current projectors. They are thinking long term, as in the screen is there for the long haul and the projector will be replaced with a brighter projector in a year or two. Going backwards with lumens, even if it is DCI, is not going to be acceptable to many of them. Same way, going backwards with lumens when using 3D was not acceptable.

Added
If you read through the VW600 thread (I think it is in that one) I brought up this same issue with the VW1100 and DCI a while back (I think 3 or 4 weeks ago). So I was talking about this issue before it was ever discussed here in the Epson thread. The Epson is just in the same boat with the VW1100. Not a bad boat to be in. Other projectors don't give you the option for DCI. Just saying many will not use it due to the light loss.
 

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At MSRP, the Epson is now $2000 less than the Sony 350. Gee which one would I buy if the Sony really cost $2K more than the Epson? What would I buy if they cost the same? Which one would I buy if the Sony could be procured for substantially less? I predict the $10K sure Sony pricing we under go a mid course correction rapidly. Raising prices after early orders is not consistent with industry wide pricing practices. Sony's price increase with greatly increase Epson and JVC sales because I suspect no expert here when asked will say buying the 350 at $10K would be a wise purchase for anybody. It all boils down to the pricing and fortunately we live in a capitalistic highly competitive AV market. Smart dealers ordered plenty before the price increase which could me a variety of things. More profit if they sell at MSRP and the beast can actually be sold for that price or something else.
 

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@Citation4444 I don't think anyone here is trying to diminish your findings. I think it's more along the lines of trying to understand why there are large differences among reviews and measurements. To understand if this is user error (on either end, not just yours) or simply some type of unit to unit variation is the end goal here so future prospective buyers know what to expect and if they'll be able to drive a screen size with a desired brightness or not.
 

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@Citation4444 I don't think anyone here is trying to diminish your findings. I think it's more along the lines of trying to understand why there are large differences among reviews and measurements. To understand if this is user error (on either end, not just yours) or simply some type of unit to unit variation is the end goal here so future prospective buyers know what to expect and if they'll be able to drive a screen size with a desired brightness or not.
Remember that Ekki was using a pre-production unit for his cine4home testing. Projection units might measure a little different. Also we know that two different calibrations, especially when performed by different calibrators, can produce different lumens values. For example, was whiter-than-white levels being displayed or does clipping start just above level 235. Also we know that even relatively expensive meters can measure different lux values. Many such meters are rated at +/- 5% accuracy. For these reasons I'm would not be concerned about the difference in measured lumens reported by Ekki vs. a LS10000 owner. However, perhaps some other LS10000 owner, or reviewer, can confirm Citations4444's results for the relative dimming between calibrated rec. 709 mode and calibrated DCI mode.
 

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I think it is possible to value an actual higher resolution or resolution enhancement a fair amount for 2D and not value it nearly as much for 3D. My impression is that higher resolution matters less in 3D where each image is viewed with one eye and the brain combines those, than in 2D where both eyes are viewing the same image, but I haven't done extensive research on that.

--Darin
I did some testing, as I planned, with Reality Creation and 3D. The difference is at least as big as it is on 2D.


I played the latest Hobbit movie and could see more detail snapping in place from two screen width (not heights) - very easily noticeable on almost anything but fast motion.
 
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