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Epson Sues VAVA - ANSI Lumens

1569 Views 14 Replies 9 Participants Last post by sage11x, Jun 4, 2021

Trapani

Discussion Starter · May 22, 2021

Anybody read about this? There's an article on projectorcentral by Rob Sabin

www.projectorcentral.com

Epson Sues VAVA Claiming Misleading UST Specs

In this latest legal action, Epson says VAVA's 4K UST laser projector fails to meet either of two brightness specs being used to market it.

www.projectorcentral.com

What are your guys thoughts???
This is supposedly the highest profile "shots fired" as typical manufacturers getting sued are the low grade 1LCD PJs you see on Amazon

While in one hand I applaud the projector industry for policing efforts by manufacturers to push misleading specs
The other hand, I'm actually not aware of the "6000" lumen claim that VAVA made, but apparently it did fall short on testing of the 2500 even.

That said, so did the Optoma UHD50x of last year. It also fell short on a lot of other claims too. I don't see Optoma getting policed

I guess beggars can't be choosers. What's everyone else think?

1 - 15 of 15 Posts

DunMunro

· #2 · May 22, 2021

Trapani said:
Anybody read about this? There's an article on projectorcentral by Rob Sabin

Epson Sues VAVA Claiming Misleading UST Specs

In this latest legal action, Epson says VAVA's 4K UST laser projector fails to meet either of two brightness specs being used to market it.

www.projectorcentral.com

What are your guys thoughts???
This is supposedly the highest profile "shots fired" as typical manufacturers getting sued are the low grade 1LCD PJs you see on Amazon

While in one hand I applaud the projector industry for policing efforts by manufacturers to push misleading specs
The other hand, I'm actually not aware of the "6000" lumen claim that VAVA made, but apparently it did fall short on testing of the 2500 even.

That said, so did the Optoma UHD50x of last year. It also fell short on a lot of other claims too. I don't see Optoma getting policed

I guess beggars can't be choosers. What's everyone else think?

It's under discussion here:

www.avsforum.com

VAVA 4K Ultra Short Throw Laser Projector Review

Vava's 4K Laser UST projector - $2799.99 on Amazon - has changed my view on projection and fully replaced the TV in my living room. If you crave a bigger picture, be it for TV, sports, gaming or movies, take a serious look at replacing your TV with a UST projection system. These are...

www.avsforum.com

www.avsforum.com

dbpaddler

· #3 · May 23, 2021

Bah. Then Vava should sue Epson for their BS marketing with the use of "4k Enhanced" on their projectors since they are not 4k in any sense of the word let alone 4k "enhanced". It's really "1080 enhanced", but I'm sure that doesn't look as attractive on the box and marketing materials.

I don't really care that their image quality is top notch. That is irrelevant. It's half the required pixels and shouldn't be advertised as 4k, plain and simple.

So pot meet kettle. Kettle meet pot. Or if you're going to live in a glass house, don't throw stones. Or pick your saying of choice.

Sent from my SM-N981U using Tapatalk

Reactions: 3

Fritz_The_Cat

· #4 · May 23, 2021

I think there could be an ulterior motive.

AV_Integrated

· #5 · May 24, 2021

The complete failure of the industry to self regulate is disgusting. Epson suing is perfectly fine by me, and I wish more manufacturers were called to task for failing to meet up to their lumen claims.

In this industry, one of the few manufacturers that actually comes close to their claims IS Epson. It doesn't mean they are the only game in town, but the ridiculous claims of so many manufacturers is beyond insane. Optoma loves their 4,500 lumen claims (or similar) for models which end up with well under 4,000 lumens. Then you get the long list of cheap Chinese models which claim thousands of lumens, then deliver a few hundred. A FEW HUNDRED!!!

I don't think Vava should really be getting the short end of the stick here. They deliver a quality product which many people like.

4K Enhanced is a marketing term which means absolutely nothing specific. I'm sure lawyers have looked it over 100 times before they used it in the first place. Kind of like how high definition has no actual specific meaning. 4,000 lumens is a specific claim. But, potentially due to the lack of industry standards and zero laws, it's hard to say how anything would turn out. What is needed is actual legal standards, and the only way those might come about is through lawsuits.

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Reactions: 1

DunMunro

· #6 · Jun 3, 2021

VAVA replies:

www.projectorcentral.com

VAVA Responds to Epson Lawsuit Over Brightness Claims

Sunvalleytek International, maker of the VAVA 4K projector, has responded publicly to Epson's recent lawsuit claiming misleading brightness specs.

www.projectorcentral.com

Reactions: 1

Trapani

Discussion Starter · #7 · Jun 3, 2021

DunMunro said:
VAVA replies:

VAVA Responds to Epson Lawsuit Over Brightness Claims

Sunvalleytek International, maker of the VAVA 4K projector, has responded publicly to Epson's recent lawsuit claiming misleading brightness specs.

www.projectorcentral.com

Good find. Man, Rob reports it like it is. No opinions only facts and what happened.

So Vava has labs that back their claims and ultimately draw the line to the greater problem of what Epson is creating for the projector industry

Whether that's intended by Epson or not, fear into entering the marketplace with emerging ideas

I see that. There are bigger fish even people on here would like to fry like Optoma's DMD chip escapade last year.
Better lawsuits to go fight IMO. Glad I'm able to have that O

I'll roll the dice on this but if China ever comes up with their own DMD manufacturing process independent of TI, what a world that would change for projectors.
We wouldn't like it as a country but it'd force a lot of this squabbling over marketshare to end and true ideas to flow again.

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Reactions: 1

wheelee

· #8 · Jun 3, 2021

china is "starting to regulate" such claims - but we all know how it goes back there

In fact, the phenomenon of virtual standard parameters in the projector industry has long been known, especially in brightness and resolution parameters, which are the hardest hit areas for virtual standard parameters . Many projector manufacturers will peak brightness of the product labeling parameters as brightness , but in fact the consumer is not up to normal viewing of the brightness. There are also manufacturers that mark the brightness of the projector's light source . The difference between the brightness of the light source and the brightness of the projection screen is very large .

The same is true for the resolution. The true 4K ultra-high-definition resolution should be 4096*2160 , while most 4K projectors have a brightness of only 3840*2160, and there are differences in definition. In addition, what is more serious is that some manufacturers mark the compatible resolution (compatible resolution refers to the upper limit of the source resolution that the projector can resolve) instead of the standard resolution (standard resolution refers to the image of the projector). The final clear effect), mixed resolutions also cause misleading to consumers.

Dong Min, deputy secretary general of the China Electronics Video Industry Association, believes that the main reason for the serious virtual standard phenomenon in the smart projection market lies in the fact that the supply chain of the smart projection industry is relatively mature and the barriers to entry are not high . To this end, the China Electronic Video Industry Association started the formulation of LED smart projection standards in October this year , aiming to promote the development of projection technology and at the same time regulate industry competition.

家用投影仪亮度虚标，参数标注混乱，中消协试验结果公布 - 投影网

导读：众所周知，家用投影仪行业存在亮度虚标，参数标注混乱的现象。中国消费者协会与河北、江苏消费者权益保护委员会，对多达25款家用投影仪进行了实际试验并公布结果；不 ...

www.touying.com

Reactions: 1

blueocean27

· #9 · Jun 3, 2021

Trapani said:
Anybody read about this? There's an article on projectorcentral by Rob Sabin

Epson Sues VAVA Claiming Misleading UST Specs

In this latest legal action, Epson says VAVA's 4K UST laser projector fails to meet either of two brightness specs being used to market it.

www.projectorcentral.com

What are your guys thoughts???
This is supposedly the highest profile "shots fired" as typical manufacturers getting sued are the low grade 1LCD PJs you see on Amazon

While in one hand I applaud the projector industry for policing efforts by manufacturers to push misleading specs
The other hand, I'm actually not aware of the "6000" lumen claim that VAVA made, but apparently it did fall short on testing of the 2500 even.

That said, so did the Optoma UHD50x of last year. It also fell short on a lot of other claims too. I don't see Optoma getting policed

I guess beggars can't be choosers. What's everyone else think?

Can someone please sue for contrast specs. Worse than lumens IMO. Maybe JVC should.

Reactions: 1

Trapani

Discussion Starter · #10 · Jun 3, 2021

blueocean27 said:
Can someone please sue for contrast specs. Worse than lumens IMO. Maybe JVC should.

I think the problem is ambiguity.
From a legal perspective, it's very difficult to pin a manufacturer on marketing claims

Say the claim of 1,000,000:1 contrast when the real contrast is 450:1
That's a pretty huge disappointment, 450:1 is going to limit your viewing experience

You go to court with claims of false advertising, well you didn't take into account
1. What was the type of test for the contrast
2. Which labs took the tests and were they independent of the manufacturer
3. Is there subjective wording on the advertisement, IE "up to" or (in this instance) "dynamic"

Basically if you go sue, the counter is that the marketing clearly was subjective that the contrast was up to this value and that the measurements were of dynamic contrast and taken by independent testing groups

What that does is now the MFG isn't liable for their own numbers, those came from independent groups. If you go after the independent group, well the measurements were the test they chose. If you go after the test they chose, those numbers were actually advertised as only "up to" meaning that in the best case they could meet and likely wouldn't under normal circumstances.

That's how you market one thing and produce a device that does something else while simultaneously relieving the liability

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silver5liter

· #11 · Jun 3, 2021

I know nothing of that one but having just bought and returned a cheaper projector on amazon that said 5000 lumens and looking like dim garbage, good on Epson.

Reactions: 2

DunMunro

· #12 · Jun 3, 2021

Trapani said:
Good find. Man, Rob reports it like it is. No opinions only facts and what happened.

So Vava has labs that back their claims and ultimately draw the line to the greater problem of what Epson is creating for the projector industry

Whether that's intended by Epson or not, fear into entering the marketplace with emerging ideas

I see that. There are bigger fish even people on here would like to fry like Optoma's DMD chip escapade last year.
Better lawsuits to go fight IMO. Glad I'm able to have that O

I'll roll the dice on this but if China ever comes up with their own DMD manufacturing process independent of TI, what a world that would change for projectors.
We wouldn't like it as a country but it'd force a lot of this squabbling over marketshare to end and true ideas to flow again.

Projector Central's own review showed the VAVA meeting it's 2500 lumen claim.

Of course TI isn't responsible for what others do with their DMDs, and many of the cheap projectors that Epson has gone after use 3LCD display chips.

DunMunro

· #13 · Jun 3, 2021

wheelee said:
china is "starting to regulate" such claims - but we all know how it goes back there

家用投影仪亮度虚标，参数标注混乱，中消协试验结果公布 - 投影网

导读：众所周知，家用投影仪行业存在亮度虚标，参数标注混乱的现象。中国消费者协会与河北、江苏消费者权益保护委员会，对多达25款家用投影仪进行了实际试验并公布结果；不 ...

www.touying.com

3840x2160 is the industry standard for 'consumer 4K' including projectors, TVs, and 4K BD players.

Reactions: 1

sage11x

· #14 · Jun 4, 2021 (Edited)

On one hand I think what Epson is doing is long overdue. A bunch of these new fp manufacturers were grossly misstating their lumen specs and that creates confusion in the market (VAVA being a larger target they can use).

On the other hand, you know what else creates confusion in the market? Advertising your projectors as 4K when they are clearly not— oh the irony, Epson! Although they have somewhat helped matters here with this new spec which I think is a far better representation of reality:

Resolution: 4K Enhancement 1 (1920 x 1080 x2) (Full HD)

But how about making up fairy tale contrast specs like 100,000:1 or 1,000,000:1? The fact that forums like this exist not only to talk about all the great things about front projection but also debunk all the frankly nonsense specs manufacturers throw out there should be a sign that some sort of self regulation is needed. Not a month goes by that I don’t have to explain that BenQ’s 15K:1 contrast spec is just a less grossly exaggerated claim than Optoma’s ridiculous 1.5mil:1 claim.

But then this is a battle that extends well beyond the bounds of fp. Tv companies are notorious for much the same things.

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Reactions: 3

sage11x

· #15 · Jun 4, 2021

DunMunro said:
3840x2160 is the industry standard for 'consumer 4K' including projectors, TVs, and 4K BD players.

Yeah someone confused the consumer standard UHD spec with the DCI 4K spec (movie industry spec).

Reactions: 1

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