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I have an AudioControl C-101 equalizer that I purchased in 2000. I used it with my old Denon AVR3300 receiver and had it connected thru the tape monitor. I just replaced the Denon with a Yamaha RX-V377 which does not have a tape monitor input and I'm thinking that the equalizer will not be able to be used. Since AV products are now transitioning mostly to digital inputs (HDMI), are equalizers a thing of the past?
 

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Generally speaking, no. Obsolete in the face of multi-channel Home Theater AVR with similar functionality built-in.
Thanks for that. Looks like I'll be heading over to Ebay with a lightly used EQ.
 
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In principle you could still use your AVC EQ if your receiver has RCA preamp outputs which are used to drive external amps. i.e. if you use your receiver as if it were a pre/pro.

However, as already has been mentioned, most modern AVRs have builtin EQ circuits. They're usually more capable than the AVC's old analog graphic equalizers.
 
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In principle you could still use your AVC EQ if your receiver has RCA preamp outputs which are used to drive external amps. i.e. if you use your receiver as if it were a pre/pro.
The Yamaha RX-V377 doesn't have preamp outs, nor do any AVRs at that level.
 

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I had an AudioControl crossover and EQ in my car years ago - very nice equipment.

In general, I dont like or recommend equalization with one obvious exception. The one place that an analog EQ is still very useful even with a modern digital AVR with no tape loop and (almost) no preamp outputs would be between the preamp subwoofer outputs and the powered subwoofers - the part of the audio band that needs equalization the most! And the same audio band that some modern room correction EQs seem to ignore!

Too bad that AudioControl EQ doesn't have more EQ bands below 100Hz - I've never seen anyone use one this way but you could use the two channels to EQ two separate subs.
 

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can still use that with pretty much any pre-amp... not AVRs though... unless it's a preamp only AVR... which will already have digital EQ built in & you're paying the premium for that processing, so yeah...
 

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can still use that with pretty much any pre-amp... not AVRs though... unless it's a preamp only AVR... which will already have digital EQ built in & you're paying the premium for that processing, so yeah...
In the Denon line, all AVRs from the X3100W and up have preamp outputs in addition to speaker outputs. You'll find the same in other lines as well.

Strictly speaking, an AVR will always have speaker connections and built-in power amps. The device that works as a preamp only without a power amp built in has been termed a "Pre/pro" for pream/processor. There are relatively few of these in the market, and fairly expensive for what they do. An AVR with preamp outs is often a better deal.

Outboard EQ presents a problem in modern audio and AV systems because there are no more "External Processor Loop" or "Tape Monitor" connections, so we have to insert the EQ between a preamp and a power amp. That means the EQ has to be pretty quiet, and we need external power amps. With the modern 24 bit (theoretical) EQs, noise isn't usually an issue, but the cost of outboard power amps can be the deal breaker. That's why a good AVR with auto EQ like Audyssey XT 32 is so cost effective. The EQ is very high quality, built in, and you don't need a rack full of power amps just to EQ.

Just running a few numbers, a Denon AVR X3100W is about $1000, has preamp outputs. If you wanted to add external EQ, a stack of 8 channels of Behringer FBQ2496 runs $800 for 8 channels, or a miniDSP 10X10 HD is $600, then you need 8 channels of power amp, like the A500 at $100/channel. Now you're in for $2400.

Or, just use the X3100W with Audyssey and it's built in power amps and you're done for $1000.

Of course, there's the used market...
 

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Just running a few numbers, a Denon AVR X3100W is about $1000, has preamp outputs. If you wanted to add external EQ, a stack of 8 channels of Behringer FBQ2496 runs $800 for 8 channels, or a miniDSP 10X10 HD is $600, then you need 8 channels of power amp, like the A500 at $100/channel. Now you're in for $2400.

Or, just use the X3100W with Audyssey and it's built in power amps and you're done for $1000.
Those two solutions may appear equiv. on paper and only at marketing spec level. In reality you can get better performance out of a manual EQ (with high-resolution parametric EQ) than you can from automated Audyssey. See this article on some of the reasons why: http://www.madronadigital.com/Library/Room Equalization/Room Equalization.html.

Even on paper, show me where I can find the resolution of Audyssey. The Behringer FBQ2496 runs at 24 bits, 96 Khz. What is the equiv. spec in you Audyssey? Is not listed, right? That is because internally they can and do downsample the audio to reduce the burden of Audyssey processing and then upsample back. As the line in the insurance commercial goes, "what you can't see can hurt you!" :D

If you are going to use Audyssey, be sure to do an AB test to make sure it didn't make things worse. Alas, many AVRs make this hard to do as the option to turn it off and on may not be readily available on the remote, or be in some other obscure place. But do find it, close your eyes and turn it on and off. I routinely do this test and most of the time wind up turning it off.
 

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Sounds like another commercial. :rolleyes:
It is a recipe for better sound that is published, read by countless AVR manufacturers with none objecting, and is supported by research as listed at the end of article: http://www.madronadigital.com/Library/Room Equalization/Room Equalization.html

"References

A Survey Study Of In-Situ Stereo And Multi-Channel Monitoring Conditions, Aki V. Mäkivirta and Christophe Anet, Genelec OY, AES Convention 111, November 2001

The Subjective and Objective Evaluation of Room Correction Products, Sean E. Olive, John Jackson, Allan Devantier, David Hunt, and Sean M. Hess, Harman International R&D Presentation

The Subjective and Objective Evaluation of Room Correction Products, Olive, Sean; Jackson, John; Devantier, Allan; Hunt, David, AES Convention 127, October 2009

A New Draught[draft] Proposal for the Calibration of Sound in Cinema Rooms, Philip Newell, AES Technical Committee paper, January 2012

Sound Reproduction: The Acoustics and Psychoacoustics of Loudspeakers and Rooms, Dr. Floyd Toole, 2008 [book]"


There is a second part being published in the new issue of Widescreen Review Magazine with a deeper diving into X-Curve/Cinema Sound and why its target curve wich Audyssey tries to mimic is so wrong.

The message of the article that is solidly supported by research and bias-controlled listening tests is that you need to listen to your system and optimize its target curve, overall frequency response, manually. Fixed mass-market automated system in AVRs falls short of that. Whether it is the really bad curve used for cinema sound, or one in Audyssey. If you insist on using Audyssey, then at least get the Pro kit and follow the advice in the article on how to correct its curve. Then you have a shot at getting proper sound. Otherwise, you are sticking your wet thumb in the air hoping to predict the weather.
 

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"Persist on Quality Engineering" :D
 

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Discussion Starter #18
Those two solutions may appear equiv. on paper and only at marketing spec level. In reality you can get better performance out of a manual EQ (with high-resolution parametric EQ) than you can from automated Audyssey. See this article on some of the reasons why: http://www.madronadigital.com/Library/Room Equalization/Room Equalization.html.

Even on paper, show me where I can find the resolution of Audyssey. The Behringer FBQ2496 runs at 24 bits, 96 Khz. What is the equiv. spec in you Audyssey? Is not listed, right? That is because internally they can and do downsample the audio to reduce the burden of Audyssey processing and then upsample back. As the line in the insurance commercial goes, "what you can't see can hurt you!" :D

If you are going to use Audyssey, be sure to do an AB test to make sure it didn't make things worse. Alas, many AVRs make this hard to do as the option to turn it off and on may not be readily available on the remote, or be in some other obscure place. But do find it, close your eyes and turn it on and off. I routinely do this test and most of the time wind up turning it off.
Interesting article in that link. Thanks for posting it.
 

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Interesting article in that link. Thanks for posting it.
Since he is the author... it can only help to promote his business. ;)
I will agree... it is impressive.
 
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