ESPN 1080i or 720p
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If/when ESPN goes HD (there is an HD truck being demoed at ESPN headquarters this week) they should use the format that gets them the most sports. Right now it's 1080i, but PLEASE, let's not get into a 1080i/720p debate! Been there, done that, it doesn't help matters.
This whole Q&A is silly. To answer it objectively, at a minimum you need to have a sporting event shot in both native 1080i and 720p, displayed on a set that can handle both 1080i and 720p natively.
Since people of such setup is very few, and there isn't any 720p sports around to compare, the poll will not get you anywhere except may be a breakdown between people who have 1080i and those who have 720p capability.
Since my TV is 1080i, I only wish all HD broadcasts are 1080i. 720p is not going to improve my viewing experience no matter what, at least 1080i gives me more resolution.
Since people of such setup is very few, and there isn't any 720p sports around to compare, the poll will not get you anywhere except may be a breakdown between people who have 1080i and those who have 720p capability.
Since my TV is 1080i, I only wish all HD broadcasts are 1080i. 720p is not going to improve my viewing experience no matter what, at least 1080i gives me more resolution.
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Yeah, I guess it would be better to wait for ESPN to make a decision and spend the money for one format or the other, and then complain about it after the fact...
-Tim
| Originally posted by vruiz Why are we speculating about a channel that doesn't even exist, nor will it exist for at least a couple of years, if not more? |
-Tim
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First of all, who says it was supposed to be answered objectively. It's an opinion poll, a way to let ESPN know which technology we think they should persue.
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Notice the question did not ask which format is better for sports... But which format, all things considered, ESPN should support.
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At this very moment? No. But many people have seen native 720p football from ABC. No? But as I've indicated, such comparisons are only part of the story.
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Even if this is true, ESPN should still find the opinion poll useful. But if you'd like to see how much of a correlation there is go to my new poll.
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I also want 1080i, in part because that's all I can view natively, but also because 1080i can be line doubled. And more important, 1080i has room to grow. Most contemporary displays can't fully resolve the resolution of 1080i. MY understanding (based on what I've read) is that the best 1080i will beat the best 720p, even for sports. Of course, it is subjective.
-Tim
| Originally posted by jacmyoung This whole Q&A is silly. To answer it objectively, |
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| at a minimum you need to have a sporting event shot in both native 1080i and 720p, displayed on a set that can handle both 1080i and 720p natively. |
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| Since people of such setup is very few, and there isn't any 720p sports around to compare, |
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| the poll will not get you anywhere except may be a breakdown between people who have 1080i and those who have 720p capability. |
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| Since my TV is 1080i, I only wish all HD broadcasts are 1080i. 720p is not going to improve my viewing experience no matter what, at least 1080i gives me more resolution. |
-Tim
720p is the format for sports. The spatial resolution advantage of 1080i can't be seen when there is a lot of motion. Now, if there were a true 1080p @ some reasonable frame rate in the broadcast standard, then there might be some reason to think about it.
In as much as ABC/Disney own a good chunk of ESPN, as I recall, I think the discussion is moot. They'll likely go 720P even though most people have 1080I displays and most people agree that in spite of slightly reduced motion artifacts, 720P does not resolve as much fine detail as the best 1080I.
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I am not so sure. Back then even the few HDTV sets available most of them were 1080i. I'd say very few had seen MNF in its native 720p format.
My point is it will be unfair to use this poll to find out which is the best format for sports (which was how this poll implied), since most voters never even saw native 720p in action.
| Originally posted by Timwit ...At this very moment? No. But many people have seen native 720p football from ABC. No? But as I've indicated, such comparisons are only part of the story. ... -Tim |
My point is it will be unfair to use this poll to find out which is the best format for sports (which was how this poll implied), since most voters never even saw native 720p in action.
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The question comes down to whether you want to be able to read the brand of jock strap each player is wearing before the play at the line of scrimmage (1080i) or whether you want to be able to see who actually catches the ball when a DB and WR go up for a pass (720p).
720p handles motion much better, 1080i handles details when no motion is occurring. Faux's superbowl looked about as good as CBS football games once the play starts. everything becomes a blur with 1080i the MPEG2 algorithm just craps out with Hockey, Football, and Basketball. (baseball will probably look better in 1080i because rarely the whole image is moving)
I don't think 19mbps is enough data rate to handle the motion of sports at 1920X1080i. Not enough of the data rate is being "reserved" per se for/ temporal resolution or motion. Going to some 30 frame per second 1080p isn't going to help.
I really wish that ABC had kept their truck because only a few of us have actually seen the difference for sports back when ABC had their truck. and this is not to say that 1080i TV's are bad. 720p converted to 1080i by the STB looks better than 1080i all the way through. That is how I saw my MNF experience back in the day and it WAS sharper than todays stuff.
As long as you sit 1.5X screen widths away, 1280X720p is plenty of resolution. (This is still close to the screen. I.e. about six feet away from Mit's biggest screen)
Regardless, this is a silly poll because most people have never seen sports at 720p and 60 frames per second.
-Mr. Wigggles
720p handles motion much better, 1080i handles details when no motion is occurring. Faux's superbowl looked about as good as CBS football games once the play starts. everything becomes a blur with 1080i the MPEG2 algorithm just craps out with Hockey, Football, and Basketball. (baseball will probably look better in 1080i because rarely the whole image is moving)
I don't think 19mbps is enough data rate to handle the motion of sports at 1920X1080i. Not enough of the data rate is being "reserved" per se for/ temporal resolution or motion. Going to some 30 frame per second 1080p isn't going to help.
I really wish that ABC had kept their truck because only a few of us have actually seen the difference for sports back when ABC had their truck. and this is not to say that 1080i TV's are bad. 720p converted to 1080i by the STB looks better than 1080i all the way through. That is how I saw my MNF experience back in the day and it WAS sharper than todays stuff.
As long as you sit 1.5X screen widths away, 1280X720p is plenty of resolution. (This is still close to the screen. I.e. about six feet away from Mit's biggest screen)
Regardless, this is a silly poll because most people have never seen sports at 720p and 60 frames per second.
-Mr. Wigggles
My opinion is that the merits of 720P for sports application is highly overrated. I say this having witnessed an ABC-produced 720P vs 1080I comparison at a consumer electronics show and being underwhelmed at the differences.
I've watched enough basketball, football and hockey in 1080I to obseve that the supposed differences simply aren't of the magnitude that 720P proponents suggest.
The reality, as many have posted here before, is that most viewers could live with either format as long as the film transfer or live event is being delivered at a very high standard. To date, I've yet to see a 720P film transfer on ABC that looks much better than the best DVD transfers. On the other hand DVD simply doesn't compare to the best Showtime/HBO 1080I transfers.
Having seen demos of REAL 1080P (not 1080I upconverted), I can tell you that is where we want to be someday!
I've watched enough basketball, football and hockey in 1080I to obseve that the supposed differences simply aren't of the magnitude that 720P proponents suggest.
The reality, as many have posted here before, is that most viewers could live with either format as long as the film transfer or live event is being delivered at a very high standard. To date, I've yet to see a 720P film transfer on ABC that looks much better than the best DVD transfers. On the other hand DVD simply doesn't compare to the best Showtime/HBO 1080I transfers.
Having seen demos of REAL 1080P (not 1080I upconverted), I can tell you that is where we want to be someday!
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CWOOD,
I would bet 10:1 ods that the 1080p you saw was not 19mbps if the frame rate was still 60 frames per second.
You can always lower the frame rate and deliver 1080p at 30 frames per second but then you get into situation that occurs with sports movies where the action is (edit: ISN'T) crisp because of the longer exposure time and slower frame rate.
-Mr. Wigggles
I would bet 10:1 ods that the 1080p you saw was not 19mbps if the frame rate was still 60 frames per second.
You can always lower the frame rate and deliver 1080p at 30 frames per second but then you get into situation that occurs with sports movies where the action is (edit: ISN'T) crisp because of the longer exposure time and slower frame rate.
-Mr. Wigggles
I work at ESPN and while we are a ways away from doing any HD, there are rumors that ABC/ESPN are going to reconsider 720P. A couple of reasons: Native 720 displays are few, even Panasonic seems to be dropping support in their consumer products. Secondly and more importantly, the availability of 720P production equipment is slim to none. What is available is much more expensive then 1080I stuff. Plus I believe at this moment there is no native 720P truck around. The one ABC used a few years ago I was told was stripped out. We had a demo in Bristol last week of an HD truck that was 1080I but had a converter in the truck to output 720P. If ABC does MNF this fall in HD, it will probably be this route, shoot in 1080I and convert to 720P.
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