[moosik]

About 4 years ago, I came across discussion on these forums about some Chinese engineers who were putting out low-cost DACs that sounded very good. At the time, I ordered Zhaolu D2 (around $250). With its balanced outputs, it made a huge difference in my system (Legacy Whisper / Coda amps) for very little money.


At the time, I was thinking that DACs is an area in which enterprising engineers can give high-end audio companies a run for their money. There are no moving parts, just a selection of good chips.


I recently replaced my Zhaolu with Theta Casablanca 3 with Extreme DAC. I found a very good deal on this unit and it enabled me to go to 5.1 sound. Needless to say, the Extreme DAC sound completely changed my audio experience. It is very natural and relaxed.


This got me thinking that DAC chips must have evolved very much in the past 4 years. I am now interested adding new DAC units to my other two stereos (office and living room). I would like to repeat my success with the Zhaolu by identifying low-cost DAC units that use some of the best DAC chips around. Balanced outputs would be preferred.


My questions are:

1) What are considered to be state-of-the-art DAC chips nowadays?

2) Did the Chinese trend of 4 years ago continue? In other words, are there small manufacturers in Asia who are putting out high-end DAC sound at a low cost to the consumer?

3) What budget units are worth considering?

 

[dsmith901]

 http://www.ecoustics.com/Home/Home_A...port_Articles/

 

[moosik]

Thanks for the reference to ecoustics.com, but I did not find answers to my questions in these articles.

 

[Chu Gai]

1)I'd guess something like dual differential designs with oversampling.

2)The Chinese are scrounging up older DAC's for pennies and adding a few pennies more.

3)If you want something with a radically different sound, go for the NOS (Non OverSampling) DACs.

 

[moosik]

What are some NOS DACs?

 

[Chu Gai]

Scott Nixon comes to mind. There are others but a google search ought to turn up something. And no, I don't know what the prices are.

 

[OtherSongs]



Quote:
Originally Posted by moosik /forum/post/16894684


Thanks for the reference to ecoustics.com, but I did not find answers to my questions in these articles.

I personally found dsmith901's ref (i.e.: http://www.ecoustics.com/Home/Home_A...port_Articles/ ) rather interesting as it gives an extensive list of links to articles on the general subject of "digital" and "DAC" and "jitter" (etc.) going back to December 1990.


Given that the CD (Compact Disc) showed up in late 1982 (see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CD ), for audio that was when DAC chips really became important for audio (see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital...alog_converter )


Cheers

 

[Nascar_984]

 http://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/ast/26/1/50/_pdf


Jitter is almost irrelevant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by moosik /forum/post/0


I recently replaced my Zhaolu with Theta Casablanca 3 with Extreme DAC. I found a very good deal on this unit and it enabled me to go to 5.1 sound. Needless to say, the Extreme DAC sound completely changed my audio experience. It is very natural and relaxed.

To put it in perspective you can now buy basic $1000 receivers with dual differential designs and DAC's that measure better then the xtreme DAC's on the bench.

 

[moosik]

Nascar_984, can you please give some examples of such receivers?

 

[moosik]

Nascar's suggestion that some modern receivers under $1000 have better DAC than Theta Extreme is actually what I would expect to be happening, if DAC chip technology is evolving rapidly.


I personally experienced a huge difference in my system by hooking the Extreme DAC. But perhaps the difference is due to other features of the Casablanca (analog stage components?).


In my original question I was trying to find out which DACchips are considered today's leaders, and which inexpensive (whether Chinese or not does not matter) components make use of these chips.


I am at a point where I am very satisfied with my speakers and amplification, so I'm looking to get improvements from better handling of the source information. From what I read on these forums, transports don't make much difference to SQ, and jitter problems are virtually inaudible. Since I feed a digital signal into the processor, I wanted to improve the DAC and perhaps even look into room correction technology (e.g., Tact).


For my secondary systems, I just wanted to identify an inexpensive, yet superior way to handle D to A conversion.

 

[MichaelJHuman]

I think it would be VERY interesting to hear these huge differences in person, that people attribute to a DAC.


Surely DACs reached a point of maturity a long time ago. How hard is it to convert a low frequency digital audio signal to analog?


Isn't the distortion, SN and frequency response of these things amazing even in cheap units? What exactly, are your standard DACs doing wrong? For example, what are the BB DACs in my Yamaha RX-V3900 doing so wrong that's it's audible?

 

[Veda]

Differences between DAC's do not mean they're better but just different sounding. Generally though in my experience, the newer chips from Burr Brown, Cirrus Logic, etc tend to sound better compared to their previous gens. But it's all about taste, an old DAC that can resolve higher freqs better than a newer one that has ultra low THD etc may be preferred instead. Thus I don't scoff when I see an el cheapo player mated with super expensive amp and speakers.


What's more interesting is that in the future there is closer integration between the amp (usually a class d) and the DAC such as what we see in the new NAD M2 and Onkyo TX-5VL. Anyway, those chips don't cost that much and you shouldn't be paying a fortune for a clean sounding DAC.

 

[moosik]

Last night I decided to experiment.


I did an A/B listening test between:

1) The new Oppo BD-83 DAC on the mixed stereo outputs (which has been rated highly in reviews) and

2) The Theta Extreme DAC


One major difference between the two settings is that the Theta only outputs balanced XLR, while the Oppo has RCA analog outs.


The difference between the two setups is DAY AND NIGHT. There's nothing subtle about it. Through the Theta I get a much clearer sound stage, with players clearly spaced and air around their isntruments/voices. The Theta sound is also more relaxed and natural (less "high tech" or "stereo-y").


Of course, the differences may be due to different analog circuitry

and different cables. However, I cannot help but notice that I hear "more information" from the original recordings.


Again, the differnece is striking. It is like the difference between mid-fi and hi-fi. I A/Bed it to two other people who have no idea what they are listening to.


I'd be interested in your interpretation of this test.

 

[Chu Gai]

Level matched?

 

[Ugly1]

The use of high end DAC's in gear is great and all but almost completely irrelevant in the many many pieces of gear where the rest of the design doesn't even come close to living up to a performance level which would allow one to benefit from these superior DACs being used.


It turns into a marketting game of lets pretend our super expensive DAC we use makes us high end. The truth of the matter is a high end DAC can only be as good as it's analog section. Even the worlds most advanced and expensive medical test gear can only achieve 20-21 bits of dynamic range. It's pretty obvious by the manufacturers own specs in many of these audio pieces the analog sections can't hold a candle to the DAC's which seemingly get thrown in there to fluff up the sales brochures. In other words why boast of a 24 bit high end DAC when the analog section is barely better than 16 bits of dynamic range? It seems pretty deceptive if you asked me but at the same tiime the market is filled with this gear. The reality is most gear on the market can't come close to utilizing high end DACs because of less than great analog sections.


I guarantee the designers understand what is happenning but unfortunately it is rarely a designers choice on an expensive part like this unless it is truly a high end design.


I am not trying to say it is universally true but seems to be way too common amongst the low to mid level priced gear that is extremely popular around here.


The really sad thing is it isn't that hard to make quiet analog sections for someone with experience. Since this experience costs money and doing the job right takes time these companies who need to shove 10 new models out every other year marketting and bean counting depts voices outweigh the engineering staffs voices and profits get maximised at the expense of a few more percentage points of actual performance gains.


Now, thanks to DRM, we as consumers are really screwed since we can no longer seek out good external DAC designs for use with this brave new world of high res. It would break the HDCP security path after all. We are stuck waiting for someone with the software smarts to do a good digital front end who can also pull off a great analog section. This is apparently a little too much to ask for judging by the distinct lack of much in the way of really high end bug free processors that sound like high end gear.


It's frustrating and sad.

 

[Chu Gai]

These high end DACs ain't all that expensive.

 

[Ugly1]

They really don't need to be expensive to be good. Even the really good chip are probably less than 20 bucks to someone buying by the pallet load. The hard part is finding someone that really knows how to implement a good DAC circuit (read low noise, low impedance power supplies and reference voltages and grounds) that can still do its thing well along side a noisy digital section. It's not so hard but theres not that many EE's doing really great analog anymore. The old analog guard is all retiring and dying off and new EE's write code. I think half the problem is the goofy audiophile factor to consider. Inexpensive high quality DAC's exist but many audiophiles would never know since they don't cost enough to even consider.

 

[Chu Gai]

Building preamps isn't the most exciting thing for a EE to be doing. It's not like that it's that cutting edge and intriguing that it attracts the cream of the crop. A lot of the manufacturers of the DACs incorporate additional capabilities into their units that simplify life for the manufacturer and if you're buying enough of them will also host training sessions, provide simple working samples, as well as send out an engineer to your facility to aid in development work.

BTW, I think your DRM comments are spot on. When devices can communicate back and forth all that it'll take is a law from Congress to make consumer's life hell.

 

[Ugly1]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai /forum/post/16901779


Building preamps isn't the most exciting thing for a EE to be doing. .... if you're buying enough of them will also host training sessions, provide simple working samples, as well as send out an engineer to your facility to aid in development work.

Oh I know, it should almost be cookie cutter design at this point. Apparently this information is getting lost, forgotten, or ignored. I don't knwo which. For me its as if the fact that it isn't rocket science and companies are still getting it grossly wrong is the reason it's so frustrating. A top notch design is essentially free from a parts cost standpoint for someone already ponying up the cash for a really nice DAC chip. The only cost comes in paying someone that knows what they are doing to develop it for you.


My question is: is it really such a big cost in the end to do a good design when your product actually achieves the high performance in paractice that the impressive part list might suggest is possible? I can't help to wonder if the answer is no but yet it doesn't seem to be what the market reflects.


Well, enough pointless ranting for now.


Cheers

 

[DAB]

Moosik, Just to confirm ''wording" >mixed stereo outputs

"Last night I decided to experiment.


I did an A/B listening test between:

1) The new Oppo BD-83 DAC on the mixed stereo outputs (which has been rated highly in reviews) and

2) The Theta Extreme DAC


One major difference between the two settings is that the Theta only outputs balanced XLR, while the Oppo has RCA analog outs"