[DFletcher]

I bought the Pioneer 510 last spring, to archive old VHS tapes. While I have loved this recorder for everything else, it does have a problem with bad source material -- it will black out periodically, leaving video holes in some of my most important things (I work in the theater and have tapes of some of my productions).


So I bought the Panasonic E80 to record these tapes. But I have hated working with the E80 -- it isn't user friendly, or particularly efficient.


After many false starts, I found a very useful solution to the problem. I can use both of my machines.


I connect the VCR (which is a Panasonic! LOL) into the E80, using R&L audio inputs and S-video. Then I connect the E80 directly to the 510, using the same outputs and inputs.


I set the E80 to XP (highest quality) and the 510 to FINE (highest quality). Then start recording on the Pioneer, and playback on the VCR. Voila! The picture is stable -- no dropouts.


And now I can use the 510 for all editing and downloading to disk, and this is the area in which it shines.


My next conundrum: how best to get this video material onto my Macintosh, so I can really work with it (in Final Cut Pro or iMovie, for instance).

 

[vferrari]

If you want to do serious editing with your source material you should really be capturing in directly to your computer in an edit-friendly format such as DV or a lossless mjpeg codec. MPEG2 (which is what the DVD recorders capture the video as) is designed primarily to be a digital distribution format (high compression) rather than a native editing format and unless you use specialized "frame accurate" mpeg editing software such as Womble DVD-VCR or similar, you will have trouble with frame accurate edting, adding transitions, or titles to your source material. If you simply want "author" dvd content (i.e., add menus, thumbnails, and chapter stops) then you should be able to dub from the 510 to DVD-RW (in either VR or Video mode), bring your disc over to you Mac, extract the contents and re-author in i-movie.


BTW - Not sure why you found dubbing from the E80 to DVD-R so hard...care to elaborate?


Good luck,

Vic

 

[spiderman2k1]

"vferrari" I have found that the E80 has a better capture then any thing on the PC. I capture on the DVD recorder then bring the MPEg 2 over to the PC to do what I have to do on the PC.


"DFletcher" Have you tried just out puting the E80 with out recording in XP mode and just do a capture when the VCR is playing into the E80 and have the 510 capture from the E80. I think this might be better as you are not encding again. But then again some times the XP copy looks better then you play back on the Panasonic to cut down on noise.

 

[DFletcher]

Spiderman,


Yes, I wasn't clear -- I'm simply using the E80 as a stabilizer for the output from the VCR. It isn't set to record. Originally, I thought I would record to the E80, and then play that back and record on the 510. But this is just too long a process -- full recording time (in this case, the tape is 2.5 hours, so it would take 5 hours just to make one archive DVD).


VFerrari,


I find the editing routines on both of these machines to be simplistic and painful -- but the Pioneer was easier to master, and the instructions easier to understand. And the Pioneer has such a nice, simple way to record material from my cable -- it remains my DVD recorder of choice. But it had that terrible glitch -- dropping out frames from the videotapes.


Originally, I thought I would put all tape material right onto my Mac G5. But how to do this? The biggest problem seems to be digitizing old analog sources. There are no VCRs with DV out, for instance. And digital cameras with DV don't use VHS tapes.


Now, the problem I have is, when I put the DVD-Rs into the Mac, it can't read them. It can play them back all right, but I need to convert the files, somehow. I'm Mac saavy, but not particularly technical. What should I be doing, really? These old tapes are very important, and they need to be fixed up properly.

 

[doxtorRay]

DFletcher:

Wow, I have all the same devices as you do! I agree the 510 is more elegant, but since I started with the E80, I'm used to its interface, and can actually work with it a little more quickly than the 510.

For getting VHS stuff into the Mac, I use a DV or Digital8 recorder that can double as an analog-to-digital converter ("pass-through"). I find this to work very well. Several Sony and Canon models have this feature, and I am sure others do as well.


Of course, another (more time-consuming) alternative is to record the VHS onto DV tape, then transfer it to the Mac from the DV camcorder. I have actually done this more often, with the thought that having an extra copy of the source in DV tape is essentially a backup in case I need to re-edit or something happens to my hard-drive copy.


For getting the .vob files out of DVD-R and into iMovie or Final Cut compatible format, there are several options. One is the shareware DVDxDV ($80)
http://www.dvdxdv.com/

Another is commercial Cinematize ($60 downloaded)
http://www.miraizon.com/index.html

There's also a process of getting the files off the DVD, and converting them into an editable format, using free or cheap software tools. You would be doing essentially the same thing that the software programs above will do, but you have to go through two or three steps. The details are here:
http://www.danslagle.com/mac/iMovie/...cks/6010.shtml


Apple really needs to create an i-DE-Movie to do this!

Good luck and have fun!

 

[vitalyi]

To DFletcher:


There are VCRs with DV out - JVC HR-DS2 (or JVC HR-DS3), for example. This unit has TBC,too. Using JVC HR-DS2 I never had black frames on my Pioneer 5100.

 

[spiderman2k1]

"DFletcher" DV really is not a big deal to have your working with VHS. I would do one thing get a JVC vcr for around $300.00 dollars I have a link i'll post i later its on another PC. They have good prices. The other trick I would try is to record ever thing to the E80 and record in XP mode then play with the play back filter to cut out the noise and play back the file from the E80 in XP mode to record to the 510. This is the best way if you do not want to get the JVC VCR. From I have seen the E80 filter only work in play back mode on the E80 so the noise is still in the MPEG2. So if you play it back on another DVD player you will see all the junk.

 

[vitalyi]

I'd like to emphasize that JVS's DV output does not solve the black frame problem (I've tried that). To solve the problem one has to use the S-Video out with the TBC option. The DV output is preferred if a source (tape) has fair quality – DVD PQ is better with this output.

 

[DFletcher]

Thanks, DoxtorRay, for the software recommendations. I tried to DVDxDVPro, which seemed quite useful. There is a problem, though, with its implementation. When I went to extract one of the files (from a Disk made by E80), the DVDxDVPro went through the process, took an hour to extract the file, but crashed right at the end. I'm not sure I should buy the real version of this, if it isn't going to work.


I really feel that this DVD technology isn't quite there yet. There are so many competing standards, both for disks and/or compression. I really would like to be able to digitize my tapes without any loss of information, and then have the capability of authoring them properly onto DVDs. There doesn't seem to be any single, simple way to do this.


If there were a VCR with DV out (those JVC ones seem to be old models -- I can't find them anywhere), and a way to play them directly into the Macintosh without any loss of information, then this would be ideal.

 

[vitalyi]

DFletcher, I am sorry about my fault - the unit is not JVC hr-ds3 but JVC hr-dvs3. I've bought my JVC unit two years ago, indeed. A JVC hr-dvs3u still may be found in Amazon (I've found it today).

 

[DFletcher]

Vitalyi,


Thanks for the info. I'll post here one set of comments by Anonymous, to that deck you have recommended.

Quote:

I would never buy this product again, and would never recommend it to anyone who desires a "professional" look from his or her work or who has a semi-professional workflow. * Importing video from the HR-DVS3U into Final Cut Pro produces video that is full of audio and video (especially video) artifacts that are definitely not present in the source tape. * The MiniDV deck will not take input from Final Cut Pro; i.e. there is no "printing to video," or even playback to video. After spending nearly $1000 on this deck, I still have to put my edited video on tape using the Canon XL-1 as my recording deck. * The deck does not serve as an analog-to-digital mediator between an external source, or even its SVHS deck, and Final Cut Pro. In order to capture video from an analog source, you have to 1) record it to SVHS, 2) dub the SVHS to MiniDV, and 3) capture from MiniDV using the FireWire out to your computer. This is a process, that, with most MiniDV decks, you can complete with only one step (step 3) because the FireWire output has a switch that allows you to deliver to the computer informatioin that it converts from an auxiliary input device. I understand that this product is far less expensive than most other DVD decks, but it is obviously capable of analog-to-digital conversion because it is possible to go directly from SVHS to MiniDV. How much of a stretch would it be to allow conversion from an auxiliary source, or to allow real-time data streaming from the analog-to-digital device through the FireWire to the computer, rather than to necessitate real-time duplication to MiniDV as a precursor? If I am wrong about how much this upgrade would cost, I'd say it's worth the extra expense to pay an extra $1000-$1500 to save yourself the headaches, if that is possible. * Two months after receiving this deck, I tried for the first time to dub from MiniDV to SVHS. The MiniDV would begin to play, and immediately stop and display a blue screen instructing me to use a cleaner cassette. I had used the deck less than six times prior to this. * The controls, the remote, and the display are hopelessly chintsy. It hurts to think that, for many of us, this deck is the only affordable option. I plan to send my deck back now that I have read the above reviews and realize that I have a good case to make. I've remained anonymous on this post 'cause you never know who reads.

There is just no easy solution to getting old VHS tapes into digital form. My workaround of using both Panasonic and Pioneer machines is an example of the lengths to which one must run in order to make a proper DVD from older material.

 

[Jay Davis]

Sorry if this is a bit off topic. But, part of the discussion was about VCR dubbing.


DFletcher- I'm experiencing two problems dubbing from VCR to the Sharp DV HR300U. The first is the dub looks a little lighter then the tape when doing an A/B comparison. I don't consider it that much of a problem as I percieve it to be very slight.


However I'm getting what I believe to be picture noise due to the Sony VCR's 19 micron heads. My older Sony (585 and 686) had manual sharpness and tracking controls. Does anybody out there know of a VCR that still has these manual controls?


BTW Using two machines or a DV as a pass thru is a lot of extra steps IMHO. I'm not familiar with the Mac system. I'm assuming the Mac doesn't have a video capture card. Why not buy an outboard device. Or, why can't you import the DVD you burned into the Mac's HDD to Edit, etc?

 

[vitalyi]

DFletcher, I have no experience with Final Cut Pro, I just backup my Video tapes to DVD (Pioneer 5100) using my JVC DVS2. I think Anonymous wrote about JVS DVS1 - I heard there were some problems with it indeed.

"In order to capture video from an analog source, you have to 1) record it to SVHS, 2) dub the SVHS to MiniDV, and 3) capture from MiniDV using the FireWire out to your computer" - that's wrong! It was in DVS1. And the price is much below 1000$ these days. I dub my Video (or S-video) tapes thru DV output directly to DVR and a picture looks fine (after burning) on my 43'' Projection TV. No artifacts, no noise - much better that the same picture one can watch directly from VCR. I do not try to convince you that JVC DVS is the best or the only way to overcome the black frame bug but it works fine.