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With absolutely no disrespect to you, that's one of the most ridiculous claims made for electronic gear I've seen. Assuming 120v house hold current, you'd need over 60 amps to reach 8000 watts (8000/120 = 66.67 Amps). You need 6AWG wire for a 60 amp circuit and 3AWG (1" diameter wire) for and 85 amp circuit in this case. No house in North America is set up like that. If you use 220v your still over 30 amps.
no offense taken. I tried to caveat the response. the OP seemed hell bent on power with no other considerations, so I offered something that would fit the budget. And as far as that goes, a used PA amp would probably more realistic specs wise. I appreciate the application of the math.
 

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i got 300-400 to spend. more channels the better and I want 150+ watts more per channel
Here, even if some say the specs are exaggerated, as mentioned only a PA-style amp will fit you.
https://www.zzounds.com/item--BEHNX3000
BUT
- What speakers do you have?
- Do you have a subwoofer? What sub if so?
If you don't have a subwoofer, put the money into that first before more amplifier. A good subwoofer will make way more difference to your total sound.
 

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HEADROOM: When you add a subwoofer, you are absolutely correct the receiver does not magically gain more power (and that that Pyle has no hope of delivering 8000 watts, I don't believe that either, not in this universe). However, removing the low bass allows you to apply that power more to the upper range. I wish I had a graphic to post about upper frequency voltage riding on top of the bass voltage but I don't. Consider this:
10 volts of bass into 4 ohms = 25 watts, simultaneous with
10 volts of mid into 4 ohms = 25 watts.
TOTAL = 50 watts (using 20 volts total. Let us say this is a 100 watt amp so it is about to clip, and you're "wasting" half of the power capacity)

Let's say you cut out all the bass (that's obviously never 100% and oversimplified). Now,
20 volts of mid into 4 ohms = 100 watts.
So adding the sub increases headroom by letting you use more of the amp capability for the upper frequencies. This is especially true as receivers pretty much all have somewhat weak power supplies, which are stressed the most at low frequencies.

The power calculations are a good point, though 20 watts to get 85 dB would suddenly become 200 watts to hit peaks of 95 dB.

As for the ceiling speakers, it depends which ones. Those round-white-grille PA type, ugh. And yes directional. And lack of low frequency response and capability another good reason to highpass filter-by reduced wasted cone motion you can increase the headroom of the woofer.
And my point is what ever power gain you might see or measure with an 80Hz crossover point with or without the addition of a subwoofer is not going to result in an additional 3dB of amplifier "head room". Without at least a 3dB gain, you're still limited by the spec'd power at the spec'd frequency bandwidth which is a function of the power supply and number of output devices as well as current and amperage available from the mains.

If I understand your point, the subwoofer itself is kind of superfluous isn't it as the gain increase would be a result of the crossover point and not really the addition of a subwoofer box. After all once, the lower frequency is directed to the LFE output you should see the gain, correct? So if I leave the volume pot at the same location and only change the LFE crossover the speakers sound level will increase? Or should I expect the maximum SPL for that speaker to increase at maximum volume with a given crossover point? If I move the crossover from 80Hz to 120Hz will that improve the AVR's amplifier output even more?

Any "efficiency" gain is not going to manifest in audible or improved SPL. If it did, every AVR manufacture would be specifying power output with both a 20Hz-20kHz and an 80Hz-20kHz frequency response. They would be fools not to if nothing else other than to solicit subwoofer sales and claim more watts output per dollar if you use a sub. Heck subwoofer manufactures would use it as a selling point. "Buy my subwoofer and increase your amplifier power by what ever %".
 

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Wait! I can top that! Maybe! I once bought a Pyramid brand car EQ booster, 500 watts! As I suspected, it was actually about 12 watts per channel when I measured it. :rolleyes:
I don't doubt the claims the specs make are specious. However, the power supply is MASSIVE. so there is some value in that, I suppose. I got it for a zone amp. And it did work reliably for me, audio-wise. The reason I took it out is that the advertised auto-on feature didn't work, got engineered out, whatever, but the literature wasn't updated, I got tired of seeing the blue lights on all the time. I couldn't get the 12V trigger to work.

I suppose if the auto-on feature worked like the venerable Audiosource amps, it may still me in my rack.

so for a PA application/ church/ club, etc it should do just fine.

Does seem to get many positive reviews on ebay... here's part of one that spurred me to add this : "I use this unit as a stand alone sub amplifer hooked to the lfe output of my sony reciever. Unit is operating (8) yes (8) 15" subs in my livingroom. On the test equipment i have im getting 792.bla bla bla watts per sub at just under half volume. No lack of power for sure!!!!."
 

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...not going to result in an additional 3dB of amplifier "head room". Without at least a 3dB gain, you're still limited by the spec'd power at the spec'd frequency bandwidth which is a function of the power supply and number of output devices as well as current and amperage available from the mains.
Correct, the amplifier cannot deliver any more maximum power than those factors limit. I'm not saying the maximum power out of the amp can be increased. Nor can the amp become more efficient, though without the low frequency load it may run cooler (since someone pointed out to me in another thread that loud special effects are mostly bass, for instance the scene in IIRC Terminator 2 where a semi goes out of control and crashes into everything in sight, or for instance the depth charge scene in U-571).

The head room gain does not come about by the amp being able to put out more power. It's from the upper frequencies being able to swing the whole voltage of the amp by themselves, instead of riding on top of the bass voltage. How MUCH headroom gain, that is a good question obviously depending on the music. In my silly theoretical example, the upper frequencies go from 25W to 100W = +6 dB. I doubt you'd see that much in practice, maybe 3 dB? I need a spectrum analyzer app to research it, it would make a nice Audio Engineering Society paper.

the subwoofer itself is kind of superfluous isn't it as the gain increase would be a result of the crossover point and not really the addition of a subwoofer box. After all once, the lower frequency is directed to the LFE output you should see the gain, correct? So if I leave the volume pot at the same location and only change the LFE crossover the speakers sound level will increase? Or should I expect the maximum SPL for that speaker to increase at maximum volume with a given crossover point? If I move the crossover from 80Hz to 120Hz will that improve the AVR's amplifier output even more?
If you turn on the highpass crossover, the music shouldn't get louder. You should be able to turn up the volume a few notches more before it starts to sound nasty.
- By the way, the subwoofer is adding power to the system as well through its amplifier. In technical terms this is called "cheating" :p
- So unless someone is going to spend really big $$ on a bigger amp, they're better off buying a sub instead of "upgrading" an AVR, since those all have pretty much the same power within a few decibels.
 

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all my speakers are ceiling

3 front, 4 rears


they are origin acoustics D86/87/D83/D67s

I think you may be asking too much of the speakers, they can only do so much and more power wont change that. Just like a person will never be able to shout as loud as a jet engine.
A good sub or two will make everything seem fuller and louder so it might be what you are looking for, or if thats not enough you need completly new speakers made for loud (which are unlikly to be in ceiling types) possibly in addition to sub(s).


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 

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all my speakers are ceiling

3 front, 4 rears


they are origin acoustics D86/87/D83/D67s
You don't need an amp, you need a decent front end. There are COUNTLESS threads on AVS about COUNTLESS speakers in your price range that will vastly improve your listening experience. A good pair of speakers for your left and right front channels would enable you to then assign your ceiling speakers to surround/Atmos duty. You haven't specified where those overhead speakers are relative to your listening position, but you may be lucky enough to have them in position where they will create a really effective surround/Atmos experience. If I were you I wouldn't even bother with a center channel right now--you may find that a "phantom" center is adequate. This would allow you to invest more in your two main speakers. The dissatisfaction you are experiencing is because those overhead speakers are simply not creating an effective sound stage--a $300 amp is not going to help one little bit.
 

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Discussion Starter #30
I dont have the $$ for tower speakers right now. also my house is prewired for the ceiling speakers to a closet. so I prefer to hide all wires and not have tower speakers. Yes I know the effect will be different but trying to make best of these 7.1 ceiling i have.

they already sound decent all connected to the yamaha. with a 7.1 sourround sound test, I can definitely hear the sound moving from speaker to speaker.

just want to boost it up a bit.
 

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all my speakers are ceiling

3 front, 4 rears


they are origin acoustics D86/87/D83/D67s
Adding a good subwoofer would add more depth and make your setup sound better. Putting 3 speakers at ear level up front would likely enhance your listening enjoyment as well.
 

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they already sound decent all connected to the yamaha. with a 7.1 sourround sound test, I can definitely hear the sound moving from speaker to speaker.

just want to boost it up a bit.
You asked!

OK, you basically want more volume from ceiling speakers is what it boils down to. I took a glance at the specs of your speakers and the critical spec (efficiency or sensitivity) is not rated for your speakers--things are not looking good. That spec gives the actual output in dB with either one watt or a specific voltage so anyone in the world could roughly calculate how much volume or SPL you will get with a specific power level.

Another issue that is huge, the major elephant in the room is they are open baffle or techically called infinite baffle speakers. You also never mentioned if you are using a sub and what it's crossover point is set. Say you have the worst possible scenario, and I would bet you do and those infinite baffle speakers are forced to run full range with no subwoofer support. If true, the only thing more power will give you is it allows you to destroy your speakers faster to force the issue. This dealves into speaker design, how acoustic suspension (sealed box) ported boxes, high pass filters and so on operate--so I'll keep it simple for once and give a general over view (for once!) :eek:

Infinite baffle speakers or speakers that don't use an enclosure control their cone movement with suspension parts in the speaker--the surround and spider specifically. This is fine and not a problem as your car speakers work the same way as well is millions of speakers used in buildings around the world. HOWEVER! They have an issue, with no air pressure controlling cone movement be it a sealed or ported box, they can easily be driven past their linear travel or Xmax at low power levels with deep bass. The deeper the bass signal they receive, the worse it gets. For example, the main frequency from a kick drum is around 63 Hz and some bass guitars have a low tuning that provides a 31.5 Hz point. The frequncy is half of the kick drum but requires the cone to move four times farther, not twice as far...four times as far. Play a pipe organ note at 16Hz (or some EDM variant) and the cone must move four times farther than the 31.5Hz note or 16 times farther than the kick drum. Now take an infinite baffle speaker of 6 or 8 inches and attempt to play those notes and you will soon discover what massive distortion, the sound of voice coils smacking speaker magnets or what a destroyed speaker sounds like.

Since you amaze me with the utter lack of telling us anything about your system--after all we are somehow supposed to be all knowing beings for some reason--I am assuming you are not running a subwoofer. If not GET one (or two) and crossover your infinite baffle ceiling speakers at around 80Hz. Now you are not forcing those cones to reproduce something they can't and you are not wasting amp power to gain nothing. I strongly suspect you are upset at the incredible distortion you hear, blame it on not enough power and if not running subs, that is the absolute WRONG answer!

This is how you can get an idea if you need a subwoofer to get you more volume without requiring more power if running full range. Go into the receiver and set it up like you are running a subwooferr (set speakers to "small" or whatever) Set the crossover to 80Hz so the receiver just sends 80Hz and above to your ceiling speakers. Put whatever you are listening to on and crank it up but ignore the complete lack of deep bass. If you can crank it up to louder than you want without it sounding distorted, then you need a subwoofer to give your bass back and to protect the ceiling speakers from over driving the cones. To gain more knowledge how it works, you can change the crossover setting to say something like 40 Hz and crank it up and you will quickly notice the distortion jumps way up much quicker than it did at 80Hz. Screw around with the settings, if you can really get some SPL out of the things with the crossover point at 120 Hz--then you were overdriving your speakers with bass.

The last thing to remember is there is a right way to do something and millions of ways to do it wrong. Once some of the factors in your audio system are wrong, it don't matter how much power, money or effort you throw at it--you have to deal with the limits you boxed yourself into. Ceiling speakers are not configured that way to have good sound--because you CAN'T have good sound from ceiling speakers when you are sitting down normally. The point of them is to get some form of sound, say for making announcements in buildings or background music. Dolby uses ceiling speakers for overhead sound effects when setup and processed correctly--but it is a sound effect that requires many other speakers used to make a sound field--you don't listen to Atmos ceiling effects speakers by themselves. Well, you could if you remove the wires from those other 5 to 9 speakers, smoke some Tommy Chong approved herbal enhancements and lay on the floor. :D

In summation, if you are not using a subwoofer adding power to infinite baffle ceiling speakers will net more distortion and blow up your speakers faster. To play around with your system at no cost, just engage the subwoofer processor on the AVR and adjust the settigs with no sub connected. It won't sound perfect but at least you'll know how much volume or SPL you have available to you when you pick up a sub or two (or three, four or 32 of them if you want) If you are using a subwoofer, check your settings and experiment with settings of 120 Hz or higher if the AVR alllows. That will make it obvious if the speakers were being overdriven with bass. All it requires if reading the owners manual and a bit of time.

Good luck! :)
 

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Discussion Starter #33
so my living rooom to kitchen is open. all maybe 1000-110 sq ft. Rectangle shape. See diagram.

The speakers sound fine. I am really not going to be blasting loud music. Just looking for a good cinematic experience without speaker distortion when something loud come up. not going to be consistently playing loud music or movies.

I think I either need a denon 4500h which allows more preouts for amp or a sub or dual sub. Already ordered a monolith 10 and going to see how that works out soon.

I am going to try your advice on the receiver and see what happes

thanks
 

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You don't need to go as high as the X4500H to get a full set of pre-outputs and Audyssey MultEQ XT32. The X3600H has those as well.

If you're OK with factory refurb w/ warranty, accessories4less.com currently has:
- the X3600H for $899 (incl. shipping and a 3-year warranty); and
- the X4500H for $1000 (incl. shipping and a 3-year warranty.
 

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You asked!

OK, you basically want more volume from ceiling speakers is what it boils down to. I took a glance at the specs of your speakers and the critical spec (efficiency or sensitivity) is not rated for your speakers--things are not looking good. That spec gives the actual output in dB with either one watt or a specific voltage so anyone in the world could roughly calculate how much volume or SPL you will get with a specific power level.

Another issue that is huge, the major elephant in the room is they are open baffle or techically called infinite baffle speakers. You also never mentioned if you are using a sub and what it's crossover point is set. Say you have the worst possible scenario, and I would bet you do and those infinite baffle speakers are forced to run full range with no subwoofer support. If true, the only thing more power will give you is it allows you to destroy your speakers faster to force the issue. This dealves into speaker design, how acoustic suspension (sealed box) ported boxes, high pass filters and so on operate--so I'll keep it simple for once and give a general over view (for once!) :eek:

Infinite baffle speakers or speakers that don't use an enclosure control their cone movement with suspension parts in the speaker--the surround and spider specifically. This is fine and not a problem as your car speakers work the same way as well is millions of speakers used in buildings around the world. HOWEVER! They have an issue, with no air pressure controlling cone movement be it a sealed or ported box, they can easily be driven past their linear travel or Xmax at low power levels with deep bass. The deeper the bass signal they receive, the worse it gets. For example, the main frequency from a kick drum is around 63 Hz and some bass guitars have a low tuning that provides a 31.5 Hz point. The frequncy is half of the kick drum but requires the cone to move four times farther, not twice as far...four times as far. Play a pipe organ note at 16Hz (or some EDM variant) and the cone must move four times farther than the 31.5Hz note or 16 times farther than the kick drum. Now take an infinite baffle speaker of 6 or 8 inches and attempt to play those notes and you will soon discover what massive distortion, the sound of voice coils smacking speaker magnets or what a destroyed speaker sounds like.

Since you amaze me with the utter lack of telling us anything about your system--after all we are somehow supposed to be all knowing beings for some reason--I am assuming you are not running a subwoofer. If not GET one (or two) and crossover your infinite baffle ceiling speakers at around 80Hz. Now you are not forcing those cones to reproduce something they can't and you are not wasting amp power to gain nothing. I strongly suspect you are upset at the incredible distortion you hear, blame it on not enough power and if not running subs, that is the absolute WRONG answer!

This is how you can get an idea if you need a subwoofer to get you more volume without requiring more power if running full range. Go into the receiver and set it up like you are running a subwooferr (set speakers to "small" or whatever) Set the crossover to 80Hz so the receiver just sends 80Hz and above to your ceiling speakers. Put whatever you are listening to on and crank it up but ignore the complete lack of deep bass. If you can crank it up to louder than you want without it sounding distorted, then you need a subwoofer to give your bass back and to protect the ceiling speakers from over driving the cones. To gain more knowledge how it works, you can change the crossover setting to say something like 40 Hz and crank it up and you will quickly notice the distortion jumps way up much quicker than it did at 80Hz. Screw around with the settings, if you can really get some SPL out of the things with the crossover point at 120 Hz--then you were overdriving your speakers with bass.

The last thing to remember is there is a right way to do something and millions of ways to do it wrong. Once some of the factors in your audio system are wrong, it don't matter how much power, money or effort you throw at it--you have to deal with the limits you boxed yourself into. Ceiling speakers are not configured that way to have good sound--because you CAN'T have good sound from ceiling speakers when you are sitting down normally. The point of them is to get some form of sound, say for making announcements in buildings or background music. Dolby uses ceiling speakers for overhead sound effects when setup and processed correctly--but it is a sound effect that requires many other speakers used to make a sound field--you don't listen to Atmos ceiling effects speakers by themselves. Well, you could if you remove the wires from those other 5 to 9 speakers, smoke some Tommy Chong approved herbal enhancements and lay on the floor. :D

In summation, if you are not using a subwoofer adding power to infinite baffle ceiling speakers will net more distortion and blow up your speakers faster. To play around with your system at no cost, just engage the subwoofer processor on the AVR and adjust the settigs with no sub connected. It won't sound perfect but at least you'll know how much volume or SPL you have available to you when you pick up a sub or two (or three, four or 32 of them if you want) If you are using a subwoofer, check your settings and experiment with settings of 120 Hz or higher if the AVR alllows. That will make it obvious if the speakers were being overdriven with bass. All it requires if reading the owners manual and a bit of time.

Good luck! :)

@18Hurts a detailed and thoughtful comment as always.

A suggestion to reduce the infinite baffle issues you expounded upon is to place a backbox or other insulating material behind/on top of the in ceiling speakers. there is also a soft back box: http://www.dynamat.com/architectural-home/architectural-home-dynabox/

And if you are just laying fiberglass ceiling insulation on top of the speaker there is also a "sock" that you can place over the speaker to keep dust out of it. can't recall where I saw it

hope it helps
 
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Discussion Starter #36
I look at the yamaha receiver speaker settings and all the ceiling speakers were set to large. shoul iset to small and 80hz? what should it be?
 

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If you have a sub, they should be set to small and probably 80hz. I don't think you can set the front main speakers to small without having a sub, or at least cheating the setup and saying you have a sub even without one. I see you ordered Monolith 10" so that should help your setup tremendously.

If you only have 7 speakers total in your setup you don't need the Denon x4500. The x3500 would do.

But if you do plan to add more speakers one day then by all means get a 9 channel receiver like the x4500 or x3600.
 

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As stated looks like your ceiling speakers are mostly to blame. Brief look at their website they almost seem to be background music/atmosphere speakers vs home theatre at a good/loud volume. They look to be open baffle on the back side with small magnets.

If you want to keep those speakers as someone stated get a sub, depending on the size of your room, consider getting a second sub someday. This will allow the ceiling speakers to play louder once you take the bass out of them. The ceiling speakers will not have to work nearly as hard playing low frequencies so they will be able to play louder.

Also agree that the 8000w pyramid amp isn’t going to help. Probably similar power to what you have now

Start with a sub, even find something used if you can’t find something new on sale.
 

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You asked!

OK, you basically want more volume from ceiling speakers is what it boils down to. I took a glance at the specs of your speakers and the critical spec (efficiency or sensitivity) is not rated for your speakers--things are not looking good. That spec gives the actual output in dB with either one watt or a specific voltage so anyone in the world could roughly calculate how much volume or SPL you will get with a specific power level.

Another issue that is huge, the major elephant in the room is they are open baffle or techically called infinite baffle speakers. You also never mentioned if you are using a sub and what it's crossover point is set. Say you have the worst possible scenario, and I would bet you do and those infinite baffle speakers are forced to run full range with no subwoofer support. If true, the only thing more power will give you is it allows you to destroy your speakers faster to force the issue. This dealves into speaker design, how acoustic suspension (sealed box) ported boxes, high pass filters and so on operate--so I'll keep it simple for once and give a general over view (for once!) :eek:

Infinite baffle speakers or speakers that don't use an enclosure control their cone movement with suspension parts in the speaker--the surround and spider specifically. This is fine and not a problem as your car speakers work the same way as well is millions of speakers used in buildings around the world. HOWEVER! They have an issue, with no air pressure controlling cone movement be it a sealed or ported box, they can easily be driven past their linear travel or Xmax at low power levels with deep bass. The deeper the bass signal they receive, the worse it gets. For example, the main frequency from a kick drum is around 63 Hz and some bass guitars have a low tuning that provides a 31.5 Hz point. The frequncy is half of the kick drum but requires the cone to move four times farther, not twice as far...four times as far. Play a pipe organ note at 16Hz (or some EDM variant) and the cone must move four times farther than the 31.5Hz note or 16 times farther than the kick drum. Now take an infinite baffle speaker of 6 or 8 inches and attempt to play those notes and you will soon discover what massive distortion, the sound of voice coils smacking speaker magnets or what a destroyed speaker sounds like.

Since you amaze me with the utter lack of telling us anything about your system--after all we are somehow supposed to be all knowing beings for some reason--I am assuming you are not running a subwoofer. If not GET one (or two) and crossover your infinite baffle ceiling speakers at around 80Hz. Now you are not forcing those cones to reproduce something they can't and you are not wasting amp power to gain nothing. I strongly suspect you are upset at the incredible distortion you hear, blame it on not enough power and if not running subs, that is the absolute WRONG answer!

This is how you can get an idea if you need a subwoofer to get you more volume without requiring more power if running full range. Go into the receiver and set it up like you are running a subwooferr (set speakers to "small" or whatever) Set the crossover to 80Hz so the receiver just sends 80Hz and above to your ceiling speakers. Put whatever you are listening to on and crank it up but ignore the complete lack of deep bass. If you can crank it up to louder than you want without it sounding distorted, then you need a subwoofer to give your bass back and to protect the ceiling speakers from over driving the cones. To gain more knowledge how it works, you can change the crossover setting to say something like 40 Hz and crank it up and you will quickly notice the distortion jumps way up much quicker than it did at 80Hz. Screw around with the settings, if you can really get some SPL out of the things with the crossover point at 120 Hz--then you were overdriving your speakers with bass.

The last thing to remember is there is a right way to do something and millions of ways to do it wrong. Once some of the factors in your audio system are wrong, it don't matter how much power, money or effort you throw at it--you have to deal with the limits you boxed yourself into. Ceiling speakers are not configured that way to have good sound--because you CAN'T have good sound from ceiling speakers when you are sitting down normally. The point of them is to get some form of sound, say for making announcements in buildings or background music. Dolby uses ceiling speakers for overhead sound effects when setup and processed correctly--but it is a sound effect that requires many other speakers used to make a sound field--you don't listen to Atmos ceiling effects speakers by themselves. Well, you could if you remove the wires from those other 5 to 9 speakers, smoke some Tommy Chong approved herbal enhancements and lay on the floor. :D

In summation, if you are not using a subwoofer adding power to infinite baffle ceiling speakers will net more distortion and blow up your speakers faster. To play around with your system at no cost, just engage the subwoofer processor on the AVR and adjust the settigs with no sub connected. It won't sound perfect but at least you'll know how much volume or SPL you have available to you when you pick up a sub or two (or three, four or 32 of them if you want) If you are using a subwoofer, check your settings and experiment with settings of 120 Hz or higher if the AVR alllows. That will make it obvious if the speakers were being overdriven with bass. All it requires if reading the owners manual and a bit of time.

Good luck! :)
Thank you for taking the time to compose and post this.
Paragraph six needs to be posted to at least 10 threads a week on this website....unfortunately!
 
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