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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
FAMILY CAVE THEATER

Well after a lot of reading, planning, drawing the time has come to watch movies.
I would like to thank all the contributors to AVS and the time they spend to post their builds and help people.

THE SPACE
Family Room Space: 24ft 5 inch x 32ft
Theater Area: 12.5ft x 20ft
Ceiling Height: 8.8ft

Current State

Doneish (Link).... some future plans for tweaks and improvements





THE PLAN
All the pre planning paid off. Only a couple modifications to the over all design as I went along
Sketchup Over Head View


Sketchup Screen View


Sketchup Side View
 

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Discussion Starter #2 (Edited)
THE DEVILS IN THE DETAILS


Budget

Oh the budget.... well I guess its going to be what its going to be. I will be tracking it like I have other renovations.... down to the penny. We don't have a fixed amount in mind but we are both pretty “thrifty”. That being said I will not cheap out on inferior products just to save a buck.
The majority will be DIY except carpet and muddling / taping

Post Links
2015-05-05 HVAC Relocate
2015-05-20 Sofits
2015-05-29 Testing plans
2015-05-31 DIY Rack---- then ripped out
2015-06-15 Other TV Rough In
2015-06-24 New to Me Rack
2015-06-28 Subfloor
2015-07-15 Sofit and wall framing
2015-07-28 Two post Rack install
2015-08-16 Electrical Rough in
2015-08-16 Low voltage wire chase
2015-09-28 DIY Power Bridge
2015-11-04 Drywall Starting
2015-11-09 Test results of double layer drywall between joists
2015-11-22 Drywall all hung
2015-11-29 Projector Ordered - rational for choosing
2015-12-02 Lotus Led Pot lights
2015-12-23 Paint and drop ceiling started
2016-01-07 Snapclip Ceiling
2016-01-14 Rack trim and Screen wall
2016-02-14 21" Subs come home
2016-02-15 Start of Frankenbox design discussions
2016-02-22 Franken Box drawings
2016-02-26 New to Me theater seating
2016-03-27 Berry comes home
2016-04-05 DIY Column Trim
2016-04-19 Marantz 7010
2016-05-02 Hitting the Wall
2016-05-15 Hanger for Projector
2016-05-21 FrankenBox 21" FTW LTE's in 14 cubes
2016-05-31 Sub air leak fixed
2016-06-12 AT Fabric Panels for surounds
2016-06-18 Painted the Berry Black
2016-07-08 Carpet
2016-07-11 DIY Cold Air Return Grill
2016-08-06 Rear Left SPeaker Panel
2016-08-15 Volt 6 Build
2016-08-16 Leason Learned on SPL db vs db
2016-09-06 Donish anouncement
2016-09-08 DIY Spandex Screen 124"
2016-09-27 DIY Rack lacing bars for 2 Post Rack Shelves
2016-10-10 Harmony Companion Remote


Soundproofing

Nothing to the extent that others have done. Given its an open area ~800sqft, financially to sound proof would be way beyond what we feel comfortable with. Given the drop ceiling requirement..... another strike against full on drop ceiling.

Insulation (ruxol safe and sound) between joist cavities
Drywall between joist also- TEST RESULTS of just double layer drywall and GG between floor joists


Treatments
This subject makes me scratch my head the most..... TBD
Start of discusion on profesional services


Equipment

Receiver – Marantz SR7010

Sources:
PS3
Telus Satelite Box (2)
HTPC – TDB

Speakers:
LCR – Mackie C200
Surrounds – Volt 6's
Atmos - One day......
Subs – Two FTW LTE 21" subs in 14 cub sealed cabinets
Head phones – Sony XXX – existing

Amps:
Inuke NU6000DSP for two 21" subs

Measurement:
Rew or Omnimic - TBD

Home Automation

Home Network
NAS - Lenovo something or another
Switch - 16 port Gigabit

The Rack

This will be a DIY rack based on @YW84U Found Here & Here
2 Post Rach that my Wife found on FB for Free 2015-06-24 New to Me Rack

Projector and Screen

Projector - Epson 5030UB - Rational here
Screen – DIY AT Spandex 120” 16:9
Mount - Peerless PRGS-UNV-W

Ceiling

Drop Ceiling.... I know sound proofing will suck but access to me is very important in a basement for future proofing and issues.
Snap Clip system Found Here


HVAC
Moving one of my main trunk lines to make the room more ascetically pleasing and balanced
Post Link

Automation / Control

TBD – looking at Insteon with ISY at the moment
TBD – iRule
 

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Discussion Starter #3 (Edited)

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Discussion Starter #4 (Edited)
THE INSPIRATIONS AND HONORABLE MENTIONS

@Archaea, thanks for taking time to answer a flurry of questions and talking to me... hope you weren’t to long at Costco :)

@deewan, your screen wall has inspired mine Old Woods Theater

@granroth, for your detailed thread and testing
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Thanks for joining the ride!
When I saw your screen wall it was immediately copied and pasted into my love it list.
Although not shown in my sketchup drawing yet (still trying to figure out textures) it will be just like yours with rock wall and led lighting.
Only difference is I am doing a AT screen
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Thoughts on Reducing Screen Wall Depth

Didn't' want to take over http://www.avsforum.com/forum/19-dedicated-theater-design-construction/1978913-speakers-behind-screen-worth.html]this thread so I copied over the conversation on trying to reduce the space that I have behind my AT screen.
It is currently is drawn at 24" from wall to wall. The speekers shown are Mackie C200's for dimensional reference.


Hey doublewing, could you elaborate on a few ideas?
I currently have my screen wall drawn up at 24", leaving room for sub, and would love to reduce this
The sketchup drawing is in my build thread linked below
24" should be plenty.



The JTR S2 is 16" deep and could fit behind screen.....



My UXL's are 22-23" and easily fit behind my 25" space. Subs are real issue, but going DIY with subs leave many options.



I've also seen cabinets stick out beyond base of screen housing subs. If there's a will, there's a way.
Yes 24" is plenty. But if you're looking to decrease the gap between the wall and the screen wall, SVS makes cylinder subs that are a little less than 17" in diameter.
17" diameter units would sure help reduce the depth I need
What about DIY enclosures to reduce it even more?

The only part of the screen wall that is AT is the screen its self..... how will that impact the potential sub locations?
 

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The only part of the screen wall that is AT is the screen its self..... how will that impact the potential sub locations?
Most AT screens have false walls with friction fit panels surrounding the screen. The panels are covered in AT fabric. Is your's different? Do you have cabinetry or something like that surrounding the screen? If so, that will affect sub placement. I would think the cylinders would be out if the material surrounding your screen is not AT. I would look at front firing DIY subs. You could place one on each side of your center speaker and put them on a stand so that they are behind the AT screen like this:

 

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Discussion Starter #9 (Edited)
Most AT screens have false walls with friction fit panels surrounding the screen. The panels are covered in AT fabric. Is your's different? Do you have cabinetry or something like that surrounding the screen? If so, that will affect sub placement. I would think the cylinders would be out if the material surrounding your screen is not AT. I would look at front firing DIY subs. You could place one on each side of your center speaker and put them on a stand so that they are behind the AT screen like this:
Currently an undeveloped space but my plan is to do a front wall like this:





But the screen will be AT and all front speakers behind
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Here are a couple of additional views of the screen wall

Ya I went a little crazy in sketchup and drew right down to the studs in a lot of places....... Glad a did as I discovered a couple areas that needed a closer look

Any feed back is appreciated


Top View ..... bit of an angle



Iso View
 

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Discussion Starter #11
You can also turn subs sideways, and I often do this to make false walls shallower. Bass is omnidirectional at sub frequencies so no change in frequency response.

Any feed back / suggestions on my plan for the "closed in" screen wall in the images above?
 

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Well, you can close in the sides, but as JVoth mentioned, you're going to be restricting speaker and sub location. Most screen walls are fully AT, since even the masking panels on the side are AT.

You also want to be careful with how close you have your speakers to the back of the screen. Too close and the air pushed by the woofers can move the screen, I'm told.

Finally, you'll want to "toe in" your speakers and having them as close together as you show does make that slightly trickier. You'll have more wiggle room if they are closer to the side walls, and blasting through the AT side panels.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Hey ganroth thanks for looking and your insite
Well, you can close in the sides, but as JVoth mentioned, you're going to be restricting speaker and sub location. Most screen walls are fully AT, since even the masking panels on the side are AT.
Yes this is some thing that I have been looking at for a long time. In the image below I drew the Dolby 7.1 recommended angles and THX viewing angles. As you can see the viewing angle is good but the L/R is to narrow. This is partially due to the seating distance... I think its to far at 150" for a 120" diagonal screen (105"Wx 54"T) but this is a WAF thing at the moment..... chair creep in the future;)
At the moment the "wow" factor and it being something different is winning out. I hate to say it as typically I am a very practical guy but "pretty over practical".



You also want to be careful with how close you have your speakers to the back of the screen. Too close and the air pushed by the woofers can move the screen, I'm told.
Good point, I had just plunked them in there as place markers, any minimum recommendations out there?



Finally, you'll want to "toe in" your speakers and having them as close together as you show does make that slightly trickier. You'll have more wiggle room if they are closer to the side walls, and blasting through the AT side panels.
How much "toe in" is needed or is it dependent on the speaker? The Mackies have a 90 degree horizontal coverage.

One baffle wall design that @BrolicBeast posted, http://www.avsforum.com/forum/19-dedicated-theater-design-construction/1498937-beast-unleashed-72.html#post33550153 , has the speakers well with in the perimeter of the screen, and "toed in" at a pretty good angle. Its a 144"W 16:9 at 13' 5" to front row seating (1.1x width) I'm currently at 1.4x width. I'm pretty sure he is doing fabric on the front wall...... not a lot cause his screen is HUGE but still AT front wall.

One thing that I also debated in length is the 16:9 vs 2.35:1 vs 2:1, 16:9 at the moment is the winner, but 2.35:1 would really help with this speaker placement decision


Image with Dolby 7.1 recommended angles for speakers and additional dimension information
 

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Good point, I had just plunked them in there as place markers, any minimum recommendations out there?
The generic advice that I hear is 2" from the screen. But it's not really that simple, since there are a number of factors that come into play. For instance, if you have a perforated AT screen, then that type of material does tend to bounce back more of the sound than a woven screen and if you are too far from the screen, then that can cause problems. For woven screens, if you are too close than you might be able to physically see the speaker if it's not black and the rest of the area behind the screen be black.

I'm not an expert on this particular subject, though, so I can't really say anything definitively.

One link, though: http://arqen.com/acoustics-101/room-setup-speaker-placement/

That's an excellent series on setting up speakers and it includes quite a bit of info on placement. No mention of AT screens, though, since it tends to be focused on music vs theaters.

How much "toe in" is needed or is it dependent on the speaker? The Mackies have a 90 degree horizontal coverage.
I had an excellent article on why you should toe in and how much, but I cannot find it! In general, though, it will be dependent both on the speaker and what kind of acoustic treatments you have and what kind of soundstage you want. If you're not getting a baffle wall developed by a pro, then the best advice appears to be to just experiment with the toe in degree and see what sounds best.

More than likely I'm going to have mine directly facing the MLP, since they will be so far apart.

EDIT: The article was shared by @Mfusick from his Dropbox page. I don't know if he wrote it or not. I also don't know if he intends for it be shared widely or not, so I won't link to it. Maybe he'll stop by and clarify.
 

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Mike's okay with sharing his article on toe-ing in speakers, so it's here: Setup of Speakers (PDF)

It's excellent.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Well that was a crazy three hours.........
Thanks to my cousin we just move about 25 ft of my main heating duct over to the other side of the main support beam
Reconnected the existing feeds to upstairs and re routed a couple.
I still have to tape all most of the seams and do some temporary connections for the basement ducts
Have to say what took us 3 hour would have taken just me 3 days, and I got a family discount on material and labor :D
To tired right now but I will post some pictures and more details in the following days
 

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Waterboy77,


You'll not have to worry about how close the Mackie C200 are to the AT screen You can have them right up against it and you won't get any movement. The ports are plenty big on the Mackie C200 and I've never seen them move my screen even though they are right up against the AT fabric. Also you'll likely cross them over at 80hz or there abouts - and you'll probably never see the 10" driver move much at all - even at reference levels.


You will want to toe the Mackie C200 in. I personally like them aimed at the center seat position.


I'm still happy with these Mackie C200 --- with Audyssey mutiXT32 engaged and for the price I don't know how you could really beat them - even with DIY. Street price is $170 shipped at nearly any bigbox movie store with the recurring 15% off coupons that are generally available on any given holiday.


I got compliments on them from some of the KC home theater crawl folk. They far outperform their pricepoint, and excel for a very inexpensive cinema speaker. I've been around the block on the home theater electronics circuit and found I think a practical and reasonably inexpensive setup like the Mackie C200 really delivers to levels, and beyond, that general enthusiasts seek. Yes there are better speakers, and some might want or need more --- assuming the requirements of above reference listening -- that's fun for a quick demo --- but really I'm never going to listen to a full movie that loud. (at least I don't think so) :) If money was no object, then something like JTR would be my absolute go to (something like @dlbeck's theater with all JTR speakers is nothing short of phenomenal)---- but if funds aren't unlimited, I'm satisfied with where I landed on the price to performance scale.


When @Scott Simonian visited from CA for the recent KC Home Theater tour, he and @Luke Kamp, and I , and a friend of Luke's watched Gravity at -3dB from Reference and that's the loudest I've actually ever watched a full length movie in my theater. I thought the sound was great and didn't notice a single weakness from the speakers the entire movie. The center channel voices sounded crystal clear - no small boxy sound that typically spews from inexpensive or overdriven speakers. I have no reason to listen to a movie louder than that. In fact, though it was fun and sounded great, I typically wouldn't even listen that loud -- preferring more like -12dB as my typical go to volume --- of course with the subwoofers running 6-15dB hot - depending on the movie. When a scene that is really cool arrives, sometimes I'll rewind and pump the volume -- but for the full - movie -- I don't need it at reference levels.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
Hey Archaea, Thanks for the tips on the speaker to screen distance.
Any thoughts on my plan? Open to any and all suggestions

Things have been crazy at work and by the time I get home I'm to tired to even look at my computer
I haven't even had time to post pic of the big HVAC move yet
 
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