AVS Forum banner

21 - 40 of 1010 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,514 Posts
Discussion Starter #21
Hvac Move

So final taking the time to post the pictures of the HVAC trunk line move.
Big thanks to my cousin for coming out and getting this done with the family discount price :D
The big reason I wanted to move the line is to remove an ugly transition / 90 degree turn that would have made for terrible bump out, for symmetry in the theater area and to center the ducting on the beam and the columns
For some obscure reason I can not find my before pictures


The closes I have is my plan with the HVAC added




the removal of the old run started




The old run out




New transition piece




The new line in
Its a little further out than I wanted but we had to clear a gas line at the far end
Also had to do a spur of the moment reducing portion.... measure twice:eek:








He also left me a bunch of parts to finish up the basement heating ducts and a new cold air return
I also need to finish taping all seams
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,514 Posts
Discussion Starter #22
Decisions Decisions

I could really use some feedback on a decision I am trying to make on design services vs. DIY


Lately I have been questioning my design and lack of knowledge on room acoustics. So I reached out to @Nyal Mellor on the services that he offers. We discussed the costs associated with the five core services, acoustic plan and design review. He is great and answered my questions promptly..... I hope I wasn't to annoying.
I am not baulking at the price as it seams very in line with the time an effort that would be required to put together the plans and design. I am not posting the costs as I do not know if that is allowed.


My dilemmas are:
  1. I am not a audio/videophile, not having heard a really good system to say WOW I want that. Trying to learn but I have no real reference
  2. Given the large open non-dedicated space that I am dealing with, treatment in general will be a different beast that isn't discussed a lot
  3. My ceiling..... I insist on a drop ceiling. I know, I know bad idea but access has always been important to me. That being said a cloud/modified ceiling in the theater area could be looked at
  4. Screen wall..... I love the look of the rock wall that @deewan has but he has his speakers out in front where as I want to hide them behind an AT screen. This posses a problem with meeting correct angles and how to treat the cavity that is created. Most screen walls have AT fabric around the screen so acoustically the cavity is part of the room and treated different.
  5. Surround Speaker locations...... With the open concept I haven't fully figured out the best placement of the back surround speakers as there is no wall. They will probably have to be ceiling of soffit mounted.
  6. I am thrifty... (not a dilemma but a factor) Many in my family call me cheap but that's miss guided. I trend to way the pros and cons on major purchases intensively and try to make the best informed decision. If an expensive tool or piece of equipment will notably improve function, safety and results I will buy it. (hopefully on sale :D) I will also reuse / recycle whereever I can as I think in general we are a wasteful society..... no I'm not a tree hugger, but every bit we can reduce waste the better.
So with all that the core question is:

With some of the challenges my space / design faces would a health financial investment to a professional design service yield the return that would make it notably better than a personally researched solution?

Hope it not to much rambling, please help as hours of sleep are being lost on this
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
11,866 Posts
I think professional design services yield benefit.
So do capable speakers, and all the more for capable subwoofers.

However, I think that with just some homework and reading on the forums (something you seem willing to do) you can derive a enjoyable experience without the expense of professional services. (not that professional services don't have their place)

We recently hosted a KC home theater crawl with five different hosts in greatly differing rooms and with greatly differing costs of equipment/room. Two were professionally designed and setup, three were not - I enjoyed each and every room on the crawl.


Craig John implemented a dead front, live back room design, and it remains, perhaps, my favorite room treatment for sound of those I've visited.

As for drop ceiling. Look long and hard at Certainteed Theater Black F tiles. They work EXCELLENTLY, 3% light reflectivity, and .75 NRC. Put R30 pink fluffy above them in the floor joists and you'll have a much higher NRC. They don't rattle either like typical white drop ceiling tiles. My original white ceiling tiles rattled like mad everytime the bass hit. My certainteed tiles are silent. No changes to the grid. If I had to describe them, they are basically OC703 tiles with a light absorbing black material on one side.

https://www.certainteed.com/products/ceilings/by-brand/performa/314184
http://www.certainteed.com/resources/CTC_Performa_Theatre_Black_f.pdf
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,764 Posts
My two cents, and FULLY understand you may have different standards or tastes so feel free to take or leave these....

1) Screen Wall - The rock wall could be done with an acoustically transparent screen. I can think of a few really cool designs you could use. Buy or build in-wall speakers. And I'm not talking about the normal big company in-walls. I'm talking stuff comparable to the C200's you mentioned above. This would provide you with the look you want and the performance you desire.
2) Nothing wrong with a drop ceiling. I would stuff insulation between the floor joists to contain the sound in the room. A few diffusors could be used instead of the normal ceiling panels to prevent over absorbing sound (if needed). This can be done afterwards, one of the benefits of a drop ceiling.
3) Nothing wrong with how 'cheap' you are. I am exactly the same way and that's why I spent less in building my room than the quote I received for acoustic help. I'm sure my room could sound better, but if it was 10% better than what I designed myself, it isn't woth it in my eyes. :)

Long story short, I don't think any of the problems you mentioned above are going to be deal breakers. I think you can continue down the full DIY path with the help of the amazing people on this forum.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,514 Posts
Discussion Starter #25
I think professional design services yield benefit.
So do capable speakers, and all the more for capable subwoofers.

However, I think that with just some homework and reading on the forums (something you seem willing to do) you can derive a enjoyable experience without the expense of professional services. (not that professional services don't have their place)

We recently hosted a KC home theater crawl with five different hosts in greatly differing rooms and with greatly differing costs of equipment/room. Two were professionally designed and setup, three were not - I enjoyed each and every room on the crawl.


Craig John implemented a dead front, live back room design, and it remains, perhaps, my favorite room treatment for sound of those I've visited.

As for drop ceiling. Look long and hard at Certainteed Theater Black F tiles. They work EXCELLENTLY, 3% light reflectivity, and .75 NRC. Put R30 pink fluffy above them in the floor joists and you'll have a much higher NRC. They don't rattle either like typical white drop ceiling tiles. My original white ceiling tiles rattled like mad everytime the bass hit. My certainteed tiles are silent. No changes to the grid. If I had to describe them, they are basically OC703 tiles with a light absorbing black material on one side.

https://www.certainteed.com/products/ceilings/by-brand/performa/314184
http://www.certainteed.com/resources/CTC_Performa_Theatre_Black_f.pdf
Thanks for the feedback. I am certainly willing to and already have done lots of homework and reading. Just need to make better notes :eek:
Do the five hosts have build threads I can go through?
What did Craig John do for treatments?
Do you know what their factors where for using and not using professional services?

I already have the drop ceiling purchased, I love the look of it and have had many compliments on it in the area that I have finished
http://www.snapclipsystem.com/

That being said I am concerned about the reflective nature of the product (light and sound) and potential rattles.
They are coated 1/4" MDF so no absorption at all. With this system I only lose 1.5" of head room

This is an image from there web page


As deewan mentioned if I find it unacceptable I will switch out or modify the tiles that are an issue, playing this one by ear

I don't doubt your ceiling rattled with all that power your pushing :D
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,514 Posts
Discussion Starter #26
My two cents, and FULLY understand you may have different standards or tastes so feel free to take or leave these....

1) Screen Wall - The rock wall could be done with an acoustically transparent screen. I can think of a few really cool designs you could use. Buy or build in-wall speakers. And I'm not talking about the normal big company in-walls. I'm talking stuff comparable to the C200's you mentioned above. This would provide you with the look you want and the performance you desire..
I would love to hear about the cool design that you are thinking of!
One key reason for AT is to hide all the speakers, even surrounds will be hidden in columns

2) Nothing wrong with a drop ceiling. I would stuff insulation between the floor joists to contain the sound in the room. A few diffusors could be used instead of the normal ceiling panels to prevent over absorbing sound (if needed). This can be done afterwards, one of the benefits of a drop ceiling..
Yes my plan is to put insulation between the joist and reviewing drywall on underside of floor above for foot fall.
My gut is telling me I will need absorption on the ceiling but I indent to measure the room and decide later. Like you said that is the nice part of drop ceilings

3) Nothing wrong with how 'cheap' you are. I am exactly the same way and that's why I spent less in building my room than the quote I received for acoustic help. I'm sure my room could sound better, but if it was 10% better than what I designed myself, it isn't woth it in my eyes. :)

Long story short, I don't think any of the problems you mentioned above are going to be deal breakers. I think you can continue down the full DIY path with the help of the amazing people on this forum.
Thanks for the feed back deewan, what was your deciding factors for not going with the quote you received?
FYI your one of the amazing people on this forum....... (yes blatant suck up:D)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,484 Posts
I'm solidly in the "DIY 4 Life" camp, so I'll never completely dissuade somebody from going that route. :D

But... even I have to admit that going DIY for various design aspects isn't really for everybody. Here are two ways that it can absolutely work:

1. You are okay with "pretty good" results, which can be gotten via some relatively generic advice, and are willing to spend some time to get it
2. You want stellar results, but are willing to be staggering amounts of time to research and test as you go

I think a lot of people are actually in the first camp but don't realize how good the sound can be with just a few simple treatments. That'll never satisfy an audiophile, but MOST people aren't audiophiles and have never even heard an audiophile-grade system.

The latter group is honestly pretty rare. Most of the people who want top-notch results will find that their time is much better spent doing something else and hiring a pro.

Keep in mind the time factor, though. No DIY solution is going to leave you as much free time as paying a pro for a plan.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,764 Posts
I would love to hear about the cool design that you are thinking of!
One key reason for AT is to hide all the speakers, even surrounds will be hidden in columns

Thanks for the feed back deewan, what was your deciding factors for not going with the quote you received?
FYI your one of the amazing people on this forum....... (yes blatant suck up:D)
I'll have to make some drawings so you understand what I am thinking for the AT screen.

When it came to my room and the acoustic treatments, my decision was pretty easy. I had spent over a year researching acoustic design and felt I had a good idea what I needed to do for my room. When I got the quote for the professional help, I had sticker shock. The amount for just the design was at the upper end of what I wanted to spend for the design and gear/equipment. Don't get me wrong, I am sure it would be worth it. It just wasn't worth it to me since I had already invested time and the things being communicated to me about my room were already things I knew.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,514 Posts
Discussion Starter #29
I'm solidly in the "DIY 4 Life" camp, so I'll never completely dissuade somebody from going that route. :D.
Hey granroth, I am also in the "DIY 4 Life" camp, but my wife would say the LIFE part feels like a LIFTIME :D
I will tackle all Reno projects except mudding/taping and Carpet

But... even I have to admit that going DIY for various design aspects isn't really for everybody. Here are two ways that it can absolutely work:

1. You are okay with "pretty good" results, which can be gotten via some relatively generic advice, and are willing to spend some time to get it
2. You want stellar results, but are willing to be staggering amounts of time to research and test as you go

I think a lot of people are actually in the first camp but don't realize how good the sound can be with just a few simple treatments. That'll never satisfy an audiophile, but MOST people aren't audiophiles and have never even heard an audiophile-grade system..
I think I would fall into number 1, with a mild case of 2 in regards to test as I go. (once I decide on a testing means).
As noted I am not an audiophile but don't want to "settle" for good.


The latter group is honestly pretty rare. Most of the people who want top-notch results will find that their time is much better spent doing something else and hiring a pro.

Keep in mind the time factor, though. No DIY solution is going to leave you as much free time as paying a pro for a plan.
So which camp would you say you fall into? Given your attention to detail and the amount of testing you have done so far I would say number 2 ;)


Did ever entertain the use of professional design services?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,514 Posts
Discussion Starter #30
I'll have to make some drawings so you understand what I am thinking for the AT screen.

When it came to my room and the acoustic treatments, my decision was pretty easy. I had spent over a year researching acoustic design and felt I had a good idea what I needed to do for my room. When I got the quote for the professional help, I had sticker shock. The amount for just the design was at the upper end of what I wanted to spend for the design and gear/equipment. Don't get me wrong, I am sure it would be worth it. It just wasn't worth it to me since I had already invested time and the things being communicated to me about my room were already things I knew.
Thanks deewan, I look forward to seeing your thoughts. Above are some of my Setchup drawings that show the screen wall and speaker layouts. the Sub hidden in cavity is not shown as I struggle with this also.

So was the year of research the trigger for your change to your room?
Besides AVS and the wealth of knowledge here, what other sources did you go to for your research?
I have Toole's book that I need to start reading in my spare time (or lack of)


At what point would you all say that construction should stop to address acoustic issues?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,764 Posts
I had been thinking of remodeling my theater for a few years. One of the main reasons was because technology had changed in the 7-8 years since I had first built my theater and the building materials available had greatly changed. When I first built my room, Green Glue was only available from a few online shops. Now I can walk into Menards and buy GG. Whisper clips are about half the price they used to be... and my income has tripled since I built my first room. All those things combined and I knew I could build a much better room, but one still at a very modest price.

AVS supplied about 20% of my knowledge for room acoustics. There is a lot of knowledge here, but because a lot of the theories on this site didn't match up with what I felt would be best for my setup I didn't research much here. I wanted a high performing 2 channel room as well as a high quality multi-channel room for movies. The design for the two audio genres is different. But with research, research, and more research, I found what I believe to be my perfect balance. I read A LOT about construction of recording studios, both the recording room and the sitting rooms. I exchanged a lot of emails with a few studio designers and construction specialists. I also exchanged a few emails with the design architect of the performing arts hall at my alma mater which is a 3800 seat auditorium. I wanted a big room sound in a small room. With that goal, I found that 20% absorption, 25% diffusion and 55% reflective surfaces should provide me with my ideal sound. Absorption at the proper locations would help with sound stage and imaging. Diffusion would help keep sound levels high and diffusion helps create a bigger sounding room. And to be honest, while my room may sound better if I had paid for an experts helps, my room sounds great to my ears, gives me both the 2-channel and theater performance I desired and didn't cost me a penny (expect the time spent reading online).

My opinion regarding construction, you would want to stop after rough construction is complete (before drywall). So you are about to that point. You could start your wiring though. You want to figure out your final design. Speakers, speaker placement, acoustics..... I've looked at your drawings and I think I have a feel for the look you are going for. With a rock wall and if you want the subs hidden, I'm sure we could come up with a design to put subs into the columns. 4 columns could equal four 10-inch subs in the bottom of each column. With a properly designed column, the pole could still run through the middle of the column and the sub could still hang out in the bottom providing equal bass throughout the room.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,484 Posts
So which camp would you say you fall into? Given your attention to detail and the amount of testing you have done so far I would say number 2 ;)

Did ever entertain the use of professional design services?
Oh yeah, I'm solidly in camp #2 :D

I will say, though, that the end goal for me isn't necessarily perfect sound. I don't know that I'd know it was perfect if I heard it, since I have no frame of reference for that. For me, the primary reason to go all-out is the massive learning potential. The goal to continually learn new things is a primary driver in my life and the aspects of my theater are no exception.

As such, I didn't ever seriously consider a professional design service. That would have made sense for me only if the "perfect sound" end goal was the only end goal.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,514 Posts
Discussion Starter #33
Thanks guys, great insight and explanations as always.
Any other comments always welcome
I will take it all into account when making the final decision.


My opinion regarding construction, you would want to stop after rough construction is complete (before drywall). So you are about to that point. You could start your wiring though. You want to figure out your final design. Speakers, speaker placement, acoustics..... I've looked at your drawings and I think I have a feel for the look you are going for. With a rock wall and if you want the subs hidden, I'm sure we could come up with a design to put subs into the columns. 4 columns could equal four 10-inch subs in the bottom of each column. With a properly designed column, the pole could still run through the middle of the column and the sub could still hang out in the bottom providing equal bass throughout the room.
Currently working on the one long soffit (32ft) on the non theater side and hope to finish it up this weekend.
Lots to do before drywall

Its great that you mention the subs in the columns.... that means I must be learning things :D. I was already thinking two near field subs in the columns on either side of the chairs and one or two behind the screen wall. The two outside columns (10"x10") are smaller than the center one (17"x10") These dimensions are the inside framing of 2x4's turn every which way to maximize inside space while minimizing out side footprint. As a result at that moment that results in less usable space in the outside columns
Picture of the bottom of the smaller columns

I notice you didn't mentioning subs behind the screen wall..... why is that?
What would the dimensions of 10" subs be?..... might have to do custom enclosures to fit:D
I have some Anthena powered subs (P1's) currently that would fit in the center columns well but not sure of there power for the room
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,764 Posts
Personally, I like keep my subs in equal places. Either all in opposite corners, or all half way along side walls.... that sort of thing. So while their is nothing wrong with the subs behind the screen, I think four in the columns equally spaced within the room is a better option. Just my feeling for how I like do do things. Subs behind the screen would be fine. Only thing I would worry about would be if they would impact the screen. Subs could move enough air to 'vibrate' the screen. Nobody likes a moving screen. :)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
11,866 Posts
Thanks for the feedback. I am certainly willing to and already have done lots of homework and reading. Just need to make better notes :eek:
Do the five hosts have build threads I can go through?
What did Craig John do for treatments?
Do you know what their factors where for using and not using professional services?
Here is the KC HT crawl thread. You can read through the thread to see people's impressions of the rooms and pictures of the rooms. I took some video from each I need to upload. I'll work on that tonight.
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/61-area-home-theater-meets/1898233-kc-crazy-2015-theater-crawl.html

Craig John's Room Thread
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/29-what-s-your-system-configuration/1349395-craig-john-s-theater.html
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,514 Posts
Discussion Starter #37
Random Thought of the Day

So as I tried to fall asleep last night all I could do was think about the theater......
Speaker locations, back sofit location, sub locations ( @deewan ;)), depth of screen wall, rack, acoustics...... you get the point
Now I am certainly not as hardcore as many on here but WOW it can be mentally exhausting.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,764 Posts
I know you say you are not an audiophile or videophile, but I also understand that normally if a person is on this page we are looking for the best sound and video we can justify... what would be your requirements for sound quality and quantity? Once I have a good idea about that, I think I have some suggestions for you and I can share my design thoughts on screen, rock wall, and column subs. If you want you can shoot me a PM as well.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,514 Posts
Discussion Starter #39
I know you say you are not an audiophile or videophile, but I also understand that normally if a person is on this page we are looking for the best sound and video we can justify... what would be your requirements for sound quality and quantity? Once I have a good idea about that, I think I have some suggestions for you and I can share my design thoughts on screen, rock wall, and column subs. If you want you can shoot me a PM as well.
Hey deewan,
Maybe I should clarify I am a whanna be audio/videophile.... maybe one day
This is a hard question for me to answer as I have never heard a really good system and am still learning some of the terminology

I guess as a start point I think:
  1. Crisp clear sound. I often have trouble hearing spoken voices, which leads to the volume "creep"
  2. Best Bang for the Buck, no unlimited budget here....
  3. Some WOW factor, hey who doesn't like impressing people with their accomplishments, especially DIY
  4. BASE..... I am not a base head like some @Archaea :D , but enough to compliment the media being presented
  5. Quantity..... Never been a reference listener...... My gear has never been setup properly and I would get distortion / rattle. I also have a wife and a 5yr old and no plans of "real" sound proofing. That being said when the cats away CRANK IT UP :D..... still needs to be crisp / clean sound.
How I am using proper terms, please correct me if I am wrong...... I do try to learn from my mistakes :eek:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,764 Posts
Makes perfect sense. I am away today traveling for work, but I will try to send you some options and thoughts tonight when I get home. With DIY, all of those things are possible for a very good price.
 
21 - 40 of 1010 Posts
Top