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Your pessimism is unwarranted. Music solutions for PC market are growing in diversity and scale. If one machine from AVR line up has more versatile offer on back panel, it could attract tens of thousands of new customers, if not more. If AVR companies do not want to fight for this lucrative market, it's their short-sighted choice.
It’s not pessimism. It’s realism. I’ve been part of high end audio and video for 30 years. Audio market is total crap these days. It’s about 95% smaller than it used to be. You keep saying things like they could sell tens of thousands of new units and “lucrative” market but you have no data or evidence to back up those statements. Wishing something was true doesn’t make it true. Look around. How many audio and video companies have gone out of business in the past five years?

People these days grew up on compressed mp3s and crappy YouTube videos and TikTok. They don’t even know or care about great sound and picture in general. Not talking about the micro market of people on these forums but the general public.
 

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I'm not audiophile but have been shopping for a new AVR to go with my LG G1 (1st week of May), both new consoles and PC. My question now is (again, not being audio expert), what am losing by connecting everything to the G1 and then having the TV push audio out to my older, current receiver?
 

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I'm not audiophile but have been shopping for a new AVR to go with my LG G1 (1st week of May), both new consoles and PC. My question now is (again, not being audio expert), what am losing by connecting everything to the G1 and then having the TV push audio out to my older, current receiver?
That depends on your "older, current receiver". If it is new enough to have eARC, you will likely be fine, though some have audio syncing issues (I rarely do). If it only has ARC, then you will be missing out on HD audio, and be more likely to have syncing issues.

How much HD audio matters to you will depend on how many speakers you have (or plan to have). With a 5.1 system, HD audio doesn't really matter. If you are planning on 7.1+ or 5.1.2+ then HD audio matters.
 

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It’s not pessimism. It’s realism. I’ve been part of high end audio and video for 30 years. Audio market is total crap these days. It’s about 95% smaller than it used to be. You keep saying things like they could sell tens of thousands of new units and “lucrative” market but you have no data or evidence to back up those statements. Wishing something was true doesn’t make it true. Look around. How many audio and video companies have gone out of business in the past five years?

People these days grew up on compressed mp3s and crappy YouTube videos and TikTok. They don’t even know or care about great sound and picture in general. Not talking about the micro market of people on these forums but the general public.
I admire your passion for AV and exchanging ideas. Essentially, I completely agree with every single word you said above. We were putting accent on different things. The reality is grim for AVRs. As you said, generations have grown up on crappy, easily available AV. But the problem is not there. It's true that I do not have data for projected sales of new target markets. I do not need that data; companies do. It's up to companies to commission research, articulate vision and figure out how to penetrate modern markets. Selling a few cheap marketing tricks and half-baked HDMI ports to console/PC users is not going to do any magic, I am afraid. Silly. Sack researchers and marketing spin doctors and get a grip on digital entertainment reality where TV is not a central object of AVR addiction anymore. Do not sell machines with one fast port. It's embarrassing and short-sighted. Do not promise if you cannot deliver. Do not step into new tech if you are not ready. Be honest with us consumers and communicate with sense of integrity. Admit wrong-doing. Treat us better and we will notice that.

Smart, honest marketing and innovative solutions can speak miles. All I have been saying is that if they do not want to shrink below those 95% that you mentioned, some serious innovations and thinking have to occur in minds of people who design and run AVRs to revive the consumer enthusiasm. It's an outdated big heavy box right now, with diminishing purpose. For example, mainstream AVRs could bring some of technologies and modularity solutions that Trinnov has been pioneering from high-end into the mainstream. It's up to companies to prove that their AVRs are relevant and appealing in modern market. Some ran out of creative ideas and went out of business. And rightly so. Those companies were not able to adapt to changing market.

One way to try to innovate is to evolve boards, processing power and improve connectivity. Basically, some models of AVR line-up need to become mini-computers with strong emphasis on audio and video, exactly as Trinnov has been doing, but much cheaper, to reach wider consumer. Relevant, diverse, speedy connectivity and modularity are the key to unlock new markets. Can they not see it? Similar trends are slowly coming into laptop world. One symptom of this is Right To Repair legislative initiative in US and EU. Increasing number of people are getting fed up with inability to change individual components on all sorts of devices when they want to upgrade something small, but not buy a new device. More modular laptops (not Apple...) are gaining traction slowly. New generation of laptops have several exchangeable parts - RAM, SSD/NVMe drive, speakers, screen, keyboard and WiFi chip. Even mobile GPU and CPU will soon become parts more available to buy and replace at home. Several companies started to offer this degree of modularity, going beyond soldered solutions. Self-exchange tech videos have exploded too. PCs and servers are already highly modular, which is great. This is also good for reducing tech waste and improving green credentials - not being forced to ditch entire device just because we cannot remove one or two parts when we need to upgrade. AVR companies need to show leadership in this domain too. Trinnov's AV machines do exatly that, so there is insider example and hope to adapt modularity for the mainstream AVR. By 2025?

Developments that could bring more people onboard with revamped AVRs are as follows:
  • keep bespoke audio and video features and update as necessary when new codecs emerge, such as AV1, H.266, etc.
  • make big heavy boxes more modular so that individual consumer could change and upgrade some parts as necessary, like in PCs
  • introduce mini-ITX motherboards in some AVRs in a line up; this would allow faster CPUs and greater onboard connectivity
  • such motherboard unlocks internal storage on SSD drives - modern consumers enjoy moving files around and having storage options everywhere. This would also allow Plex server inside of AVR.
  • software needs significant upgrade to OS status; this unlocks so many things
  • introduce USB4 with video tunneling, in and out - this will bring DisplayPort and data transfer
  • if they do decide to put HDMI port at the front, please, please, make it functional for modern 4K cameras and speedy laptops. Current 9 Gbps front ports... complete absurd; waste of time, energy and money. Lack of imagination, lack of reality check, lack of research into already available and incoming devices that would connect to it
  • install faster LAN ports and WiFi 6 for speedy transfers and streaming on home network, so that consumers have freedom to move files around and play it from whereever they want to. Current 100 Mbps Ethernet ports are so 1990s.
  • put speedy USB4 C type port to the front, so that anyone could easily connect ad hoc peripherals, such as laptops, media storage, usb hub, etc.
  • the list of innovations is long...
  • ah, and that dinosaur HDMI-only board; really... get a grip on modern AV connectivity and diversify ports. It's not nice to have one type of port when monitors and laptops have HDMI, DP, UCB-C and Thunderbolt ports, to allow consumers various options to connect sources with movies, graphics and whatever they want.

If anyone here knows AVR engineers and specialists working for mainstream companies, please forward these ideas to them.

All in all, I guess we need AVRs with more options. If it's claimed to be a home theatre hub, it needs to be a modern media hub.
 

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I said consumer, and that distinction is very important. This is a discussion about A/V receivers for consumers. The professional market is different. Integration and user experience win for consumers.
I also meant for consumers whenever I mentioned for personal use. It's me and you, everyday consumers. Trinnov is for professionals and/or audiophile consumers with deeper pockets for AV passion. Most other brand are for us, "average" consumers, unless you are Trinnov fan. Current AVRs for a mass consumer are outdated big boxes that need a serious change in connectivity and functionality to meet new needs.
 

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I admire your passion for AV and exchanging ideas. Essentially, I completely agree with every single word you said above. We were putting accent on different things. The reality is grim for AVRs. As you said, generations have grown up on crappy, easily available AV. But the problem is not there. It's true that I do not have data for projected sales of new target markets. I do not need that data; companies do. It's up to companies to commission research, articulate vision and figure out how to penetrate modern markets. Selling a few cheap marketing tricks and half-baked HDMI ports to console/PC users is not going to do any magic, I am afraid. Silly. Sack researchers and marketing spin doctors and get a grip on digital entertainment reality where TV is not a central object of AVR addiction anymore. Do not sell machines with one fast port. It's embarrassing and short-sighted. Do not promise if you cannot deliver. Do not step into new tech if you are not ready. Be honest with us consumers and communicate with sense of integrity. Admit wrong-doing. Treat us better and we will notice that.

Smart, honest marketing and innovative solutions can speak miles. All I have been saying is that if they do not want to shrink below those 95% that you mentioned, some serious innovations and thinking have to occur in minds of people who design and run AVRs to revive the consumer enthusiasm. It's an outdated big heavy box right now, with diminishing purpose. For example, mainstream AVRs could bring some of technologies and modularity solutions that Trinnov has been pioneering from high-end into the mainstream. It's up to companies to prove that their AVRs are relevant and appealing in modern market. Some ran out creative ideas and went out of business. And rightly so. Those companies were not able to adapt to changing market.

One way to try to innovate is to evolve boards, processing power and improve connectivity. Basically, AVRs need to become mini-computers with strong emphasis on audio and video, exactly as Trinnov has been doing, but much cheaper, to reach wider consumer. Relevant, diverse, speedy connectivity and modularity are the key to unlock new markets. Can they not see it? Similar trends are slowly coming into laptop world. One symptom of this is Right To Repair legislative initiative in US and EU. Increasing number of people are getting fed up with inability to change individual components on all sorts of devices when they want to upgrade something small, but not buy a new device. More modular laptops (not Apple...) are gaining traction slowly. New generation of laptops have several exchangeable parts - RAM, NVMe drive, speakers, screen, keyboard, SSD drive, WiFi and even mobile GPU will soon become a part to buy and replace at home. Self-exchange tech videos have exploded. PCs are already highly modular, which is great. This is also good for reducing tech waste and improving green credentials - not being forced to ditch entire device just because we cannot remove on or two parts we need to upgrade. AVR companies need to show leadership in this domain too. Trinnov does, so there is an example and hope to adapt modularity for the mainstream AVR. By 2025?

Developments that could bring more people onboard with revamped AVRs are as follows:
  • keep bespoke audio and video features and update as necessary when new codecs emerge, such as AV1
  • make big heavy boxes more modular so that individual consumer could change and upgrade some parts, like in PCs
  • introduce mini-ITX motherboards in some AVRs in a line up; this would allow faster CPUs and onboard connectivity
  • such motherboard unlocks internal storage on SSD drives - modern consumers enjoy moving files around and having storage options everywhere. This would also allow Plex server inside of AVR.
  • software needs significant upgrade to OS status; this unlocks so many things
  • introduce USB4 with video tunneling, in and out - this will bring DisplayPort and data transfer
  • if they do decide to put HDMI port at the front, please, please, make it functional for modern 4K cameras and speedy laptops. Current 9 Gbps front ports... complete absurd; waste of time, energy and money. Lack of imagination, lack of reality check, lack of research into already available and incoming devices that would connect to it
  • install faster LAN ports and WiFi 6 for speedy transfers on home network, so that consumers have freedom to move files around and play it from whereever they want to
  • the list of innovations is long...
  • ah, and that dinosaur HDMI-only board; really... get a grip on modern AV connectivity and diversify ports. It's not nice to have neanderthal-style ports when monitors and laptops have HDMI, DP, UCB-C and Thunderbolt ports, to allow consumers various options to connect movies, graphics and whatever they want.

All in all, I guess we need AVRs with more options. If it's a hub, it needs to be a modern hub.
It seems that you want a PC with multiple video outputs + speaker connections and that's asking for problems on a simple device like an AVR.

Honestly, I think AVR's should not be that complex, there's 2 main reasons for owning a AVR for a non enthusiast, the HDMI hub and the real 5.1 or above sound, and right now not even the HDMI hub is a solid thing, so imagine adding all that you refer and developing a solid software.

Last thing I want to worry is one more device with software problems, I don't even think an home theatre enthusiast would like a AVR to manage the files on the network, there's better devices for that, so not going to happen.
 

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That depends on your "older, current receiver". If it is new enough to have eARC, you will likely be fine, though some have audio syncing issues (I rarely do). If it only has ARC, then you will be missing out on HD audio, and be more likely to have syncing issues.

How much HD audio matters to you will depend on how many speakers you have (or plan to have). With a 5.1 system, HD audio doesn't really matter. If you are planning on 7.1+ or 5.1.2+ then HD audio matters.
Thank you. I definitely don't have eARC or probably even ARC. It's a Yamaha from 2004 i think. It was really nice back in the day and still works great for 5.1. Sounds like I don't even need to worry about this problem with 2020/2021 AVR's. I can just buy and use basically anything good with Atmos if I connect everything to the G1 and then optical out.
 

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Honestly, I think AVR's should not be that complex, there's 2 main reasons for owning a AVR for a non enthusiast, the HDMI hub and the real 5.1 or above sound, and right now not even the HDMI hub is a solid thing, so imagine adding all that you refer and developing a solid software.
True. Not all AVRs need to. Diversity of choice would be good though. I mentioned one or two models in entire line up could have different configuration. Usually, companies release 4-6 models of AVRs in any new gen. Why not try advancing at least one of those and see how market reacts? If current market is so depleted, as LeKnobber suggests, some break-through or incremental, but important improvements are innevitable to turn things around.

Last thing I want to worry is one more device with software problems
Linux is pretty much simple and stable to run. Unlike Windows, it works without major hick-ups, as shown on high-end AVRs. For example, Trinnov software specialists removed all possible drivers from OS which are irrelevant for AVRs. It's a heavily optimized and simpified Linux for AVRs and it unlocks many options. Slim, slick and fast.
 

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Some great uplift in DAC and audio department for Denon and most Anthem owners, but not necessarily Marantz and others (~1 hour). In this interview, Amir, the "disruptor" in audio science review, shares a lot of important things about the quality of sound, distortion, noise, robust testing, challenging marketing BS and more. He has opened up all relevant audio measurements, including in AVRs, to the public. We need more people like him and Audioholics to scrutinize AVR companies, so that their products get better for consumers. Enjoy it.


3115831
 

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Some great uplift in DAC and audio department for Denon and most Anthem owners, but not necessarily Marantz and others (~1 hour). In this interview, Amir, the "disruptor" in audio science review, shares a lot of important things about the quality of sound, distortion, noise, robust testing, challenging marketing BS and more. He has opened up all relevant audio measurements, including in AVRs, to the public. We need more people like him and Audioholics to scrutinize AVR companies, so that their products get better for consumers. Enjoy it.

- Picture omitted -
Audioholics is too tied to the manufacturers. Audioholics also performs few measurements and doesn't document their measurements.

ASR is the chief force in implementing market reform.
 

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Audioholics is too tied to the manufacturers. Audioholics also performs few measurements and doesn't document their measurements.
Look, it's more complex than such general judgement. We need multiple voices to build wider picture of many devices. No single reviewer is perfect, ever. I agree that Audiholics do not always do in-depth measurements, but guess what, they do not need to and it's not their mission either. It is also true that they called out many BS from producers over the years and contributed to product improvement.

On the other hand, Amir and ASR are super useful, robust and forensic, but he sometimes obsesses with some details that aren't necessarily that important as he thinks, to paraphrase one member. And he also contributes to product awareness and improvement. We need all of them, and more, being mindful that no one is ideal.
 

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One can take all of the reviews under advisement..
My 1 gripe with ASR is that Amir came from the computer side and frequently overshoots some of the legacy audio and video basics such as pre-outs....

Just my $0.02... ;)
 

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Heard back from Denon engineers - the still have not figured out the VRR issue - but think it’s AN EDID one….

They are testing in Japan with a 3090- so unless I could speak native Japanese their offer to clarify stuff with them won’t work.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

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but think it’s AN EDID one….
That's some mighty fine grade A bull pucky right there. :poop: Either they don't know what's wrong or are not allowed to tell you what's wrong.

Here's what's in an EDID to enable VRR:

VRRmin: 40 Hz
VRRmax: 120 Hz

Two numbers. That's it. That's all. How can you possibly have an EDID issue with two numbers?
 

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That's some mighty fine grade A bull pucky right there. :poop:
Hahaha! Oh dear, oh dear...

2020 and 2021 will be remembered as the worst HDMI transition in living memory, with so much BS and lies from many companies around the world. It'd be great if there was a keen and super-frustrated laywer who cannot get those features working on his/her home gear and finally take a few companies to courts, just like happened to Apple.
 

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Hahaha! Oh dear, oh dear...

2020 and 2021 will be remembered as the worst HDMI transition in living memory, with so much BS and lies from many companies around the world. It'd be great if there was a keen and super-frustrated laywer who cannot get those features working on his/her home gear and finally take a few companies to courts, just like happened to Apple.
Good news from the marketing department: We can push more data over copper at home than what network engineers can over fiber in a datacenter!

 
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