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HDMI is not point-to-point. There are possible configurations with more than 2 devices. More like a broadcast medium.
Only the CEC bus connects all devices. The TMDS lines, DDC channel and HEAC+ are all point to point between devices.

This just proves you have no clue how HDMI actually works.

What planet are you from? ;)


Welcome to my ignore list. You are not worth my time and effort.
 

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Premium Member
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Let's hire a marketing agency to push for the new port touting its superior capabilities and then charge for the privilege of using it. Let's not pay attention to the fact when watching streaming/physical media/broadcasts or anything outside PC/gaming there is a 1000x bandwidth bloat current crop of cables are having trouble handling.
I cannot see the evidence that motherboards, GPUs and monitors are significantly more expensive just because they offer two and often three video interfaces - HDMI, traditional DP and DP over usb-c. It's a standard to offer users various intefaces so that they could make best matches with their home devices. Much more flexible than in AVRs.

Would you not support more choice of connectivity for users of AVRs?
 

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Here are updated photos of back panels of new AVRs from Onkyo, Pioneer and Integra. These show higher-tier models. Lower tier models have dividing lines between 8K/4K ports, just like Yamaha. Back panels do not show which ports are 40 Gbps and 24 Gbps.

3118567
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3118569

On another note, it seems that the debt-ridden company is, indeed, going to be kicked out of Tokyo Stock Exchange in a few months. So, any member interested in new models will need to check thoroughly not only independent reviews on HDMI 2.1 reliability, power delivery, distortion, etc., but also after sales product support, to avoid unpleasant surprises linked to repairs and part orders.

As 2.1 features are predominantly important for gaming community and graphics enthusiasts, the deal-breaker is going to be, assuming product support is ironed out, AVRs' ability to pass-through VRR/Gsync/Freesync reliably. If this is not explicitly advertised and tested, we will have a problem again with users avoiding direct video connections to AVR. This would defeat the purpose of buying HDMI 2.1 receiver.

We have learnt that it is not enough to list VRR in the product spec. That tells us almost nothing. Tests need to clearly show whether VRR is restricted to specific GPU-display configurations, resolutions and refresh rates. Also, just because generic VRR is listed, it does not mean that AMD or Nvidia's GPUs will be able to establish Gsync/Freesync handshake with a display, when pipelined through AVR.

For example, stock LG C9 is capable of receiving generic HDMI VRR, whereas AMD GPU's software contains Freesync version driver only and toggle does not react to generic VRR on display's side. The result is that neither VRR nor Freesync work in this combination. This has been rectified on LG X, which explicitly supports FreeSync Premium. If we add AVR to this chain, it may turn out more complex, or it may not. We need to see testing results.

Suppose we use Nvidia's GPU and TV or monitor being Gsync compatible or Gsync Ultimate. Will new AVRs allow pass-through of both, one of those or neither? Secure knowledge on this will spare us from further confusion and disappointments and will allow buyers to purchase and pair appropriate devices at home. If not, marketing towards gamers will fail again as users will avoid direct video connections from GPU to AVR.
 

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Hi all,

I’m exploring an option to upgrade my X4300H to a 2.1 model, and I was wondering, if buying a new x3700-x6700 will come with hdmi issues, or was this only happening in select units
 

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Hi all,

I’m exploring an option to upgrade my X4300H to a 2.1 model, and I was wondering, if buying a new x3700-x6700 will come with hdmi issues, or was this only happening in select units
It won't work - none of them do. There are no functional HDMI 2.1 AVRs available yet, though the new Onkyo/Pioneer a few posts up may be OK once released. Nobody knows right now when you'll be able to buy one that really works.
 

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It won't work - none of them do. There are no functional HDMI 2.1 AVRs available yet
That is not entirely accurate. It depends on specific configuration and usage.

- PS5 works ok with Denon at 32 Gbps. What we do not know is whether VRR pass-through works properly. PS5 does not have it at the moment, XboxX cannot be checked due to black screen and Nvidia GPU does not seem to be able to pass Gsync through. No data for AMD graphics cards, however I suspect FreeSync may not pass through either.

Also, still desktop PC image from Nvidia GPU works ok with Denon at 40 Gbps. Moving images experience problems and instability. There you have it.

Is it a functional HDMI 2.1 AVR? Mostly not, only in limited capacity, with one gaming device and as a giant PC desktop screen for still images :rolleyes:
 

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PSA MTM-210C-M Center; 2x MTM-100-M L-R; 2x KEF Q50as surrounds. 2x KEF QQ50a FH; Denon x2400h.
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No update.
Goddamn it! Upgraded my entire system (LG CX, PSA speakers/sub, Series X). All I'm missing is a new receiver, and these bastards haven't solved jack 6 months later....
 

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PSA MTM-210C-M Center; 2x MTM-100-M L-R; 2x KEF Q50as surrounds. 2x KEF QQ50a FH; Denon x2400h.
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Premium Member
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It could simply be more effective for a group of affected AVR owners to organise themselves and hire a laywer rather than keep barking on stars. A lot of tech companies have been winning and losing their cases in courts in recent years. It's quite a popular sport these days.

Even the Supreme Court has recently had a privilege to rule in favour of Google for not infringing a copyright law as regards to fair use of Oracle's API in its products. The ruling save them billions of dollars. Interesting case.
Google against Oracle in the Supreme Court

Similar ruling in favour of AVR customers who purchased half-baked and semi-functional products could send a clear message to entire industry about how mature and robustly tested HDMI chips need to be before offered to customers.
 

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And that would result in HDMI 2.1 devices not bring released anymore until 2022. Or 2023.

The demand for HDMI 2.1 receivers was immense - there were threads here begging for someone to release something. 2019 was considered a lost year with many manufacturers not releasing a new model because of the upcoming release of chips. There was anger over this decision.

If you want to send a strong message, all you had to do was return the unit and wait it out. But obviously the hype and shortages threw everyone into crazy mode with people saying they don't care just give me my HDMI 2.1.

And we still have threads about people asking about it and being impatient waiting for fixed units. The lawsuit would do absolutely nothing about that - it just means no product on the market and people shouting where are the receivers and screw the incompatibility they want it now.

Plus, it wouldn't really do anything - if they released it in Japan where such lawsuit never happened, people would just import the broken units anyways. Or some Chinese fly by night releases their unit and disappears to make big bucks off the insane demand.

So yes, a lawsuit will change things. It just means the hardware will be released elsewhere first and everyone will go insane importing the things into the US, so import electronics stores would serve to make great profits being able to mark up the price of the units 100% or more. And we'd still have threads like this except they'd be interspersed with comments asking when are the units coming out in the US.
 

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Let us not lose perspective. Impressions you were painting are based on:
  • a small sample
  • of specific type of AV consumers (who happen to own consoles and/or PCs)
  • from one or two online fora and
  • relate to one ot two countries in the world.
Not quite representative, I am afraid.

And that would result in HDMI 2.1 devices not bring released anymore until 2022
There is nothing wrong with 2022, if further testing with sources is necessary. 2020 release with one speedy port was disappointing enough. A tech joke for those hyper impatient consumers, as you paint them. It should have never happened. And, we will have more devices this year, with improved, second gen chips. Following what high-end brands do with implementation of new tech is often useful. They tend to be more cautious, are not bullied by beta-releases and do not risk losing trust in their products. If it's not mature, it must be delayed until proven to work with multiple sources. It's as simple as that.
The demand for HDMI 2.1 receivers was immense - there were threads here begging for someone to release something
Where do you take your figures from for this claim? I cannot see any "immense" demand anywhere. Can you, really? Data from one market research firm are below. Just because a few enthusiasts are "begging" for new products, it does not mean there is high demand. High demand is in GPU market now and you can clearly see how it works if you read tech websites. The prices of new graphics cards are insane. Nothing similar has happened with HDMI 2.1 receivers.
But obviously the hype and shortages threw everyone into crazy mode with people saying they don't care just give me my HDMI 2.1.
A few people shouting out their expectations should not divert us from real market figures and projections based on it.
it just means no product on the market and people shouting where are the receivers and screw the incompatibility they want it now.
I guess this has everything to do with demanding mentality of tiny part of consumer market. They wanted untested and unready products, they have it now and are not happy with what was delivered. Was that the point you were trying to make? The problem is in the mind-set of some consumers. Nobody is entitled to any new tech product. If you want new tech to come quickly into the market, unchecked by any regulations and robust certifications, this is what you are going to get - a receiver that causes black screen once you connect a source that otherwise works well without AVR.
Plus, it wouldn't really do anything - if they released it in Japan where such lawsuit never happened, people would just import the broken units anyways.
You really do not know how it could pan out. Leave it to specialists in the justice system and process of commercial agreements. We can see that import and quality assurance can be controlled well in many countries. One or two rogue websites shipping a few disallowed units is not going to change the effectiveness of policy, if mandated well. Those consumers who shout "I want it now" actually do not care about consumer protection, I'd argue.
import electronics stores would serve to make great profits being able to mark up the price of the units 100% or more
Again, this is unwaranted view, not based on data. If the quality assurance, certification and formal flow of devices is secured, and you still get faulty receivers in stores through second-hand channels, with price increase or not, only a few crazy people would actually buy it, no? Who would like to have a faulty or unready unit in their house? Nonsense.

Here is some data, to put things in perspective Global AVR market analysis
It's a ~2 billion $ global market, with steady annual average growth of 1.12% only (~23 million $), with major markets actually being outside of US, in Asia. It's a tiny market in comparison with PCs or other home entertainment goods. Such growth rate does not suggest any "immense demand" here and now. It has been steady over the years, with no major bumps. Are some Asian consumers also anxious and hysterical about HDMI 2.1 receivers? It's a good research question. I'd like to see results from such research.
 

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I'm That Guy, don't be me
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I cannot see any "immense" demand anywhere.
"Immense" is relative, but...

Increased demand for HDMI 2.1 AVRs in 2020 was driven by the imminent release of the new consoles*. The AVR threads on this forum are filled with people asking about HDMI 2.1. Obviously most gamers aren't buying AVRs, but it is undeniable that far more gamers have bought AVRs in the last year or are looking to buy one ASAP. The AVR companies obviously see this demand as they have been talking non-stop about HDMI 2.1. It is by far the #1 feature they have been promoting for the last year.

* PC gaming with AVRs is a pretty niche market that I don't think is driving very many sales of AVRs.
 
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