[PeterJK]

Sorry to create a new topic about this, but I haven't been able to find anyone here with remotely the same difficulties.


Here's my setup


TheaterTek 2.01

FFDShow 20041012-sse2

ATi 9700Pro outputting to a monitor and a Hitachi PJ-TX100


They are probably the most relevant specs, but if more info is needed, please ask. Basically my problem is this. When I play a DVD movie in TheaterTek, everything seems to be fine, at least in terms of color etc. See this pic (before ffdshow):

http://www.redbrick.dcu.ie/~peterk/lotrorig.jpg


Colors are fine, no blockiness etc. But when I plug in FFDShow, have a look at what happens:

http://www.redbrick.dcu.ie/~peterk/lotrffdshow.jpg


Colors seem to be completely messed up - there are lots of blocks of color (look at arwen's cheek and the blocks of red/pink). This blockiness is even more prevalent in darker scenes, and makes everything look really low resolution and blocky. It's almost as if someone turned down the colour depth (but I assure you, my graphics card is set to 32-bit color). This can be observed on both the monitor and the PJ, so it has to be a software problem.


The FFDShow settings, by the way, were set to YV12 for the color space, and all I was doing was a simple resize of the scene to 1280x720. Removing the resize (i.e. doing nothing), makes no difference. I've even messed about with different colorspaces, including the original default settings, but all have the same blockiness (if different coloring).


Many thanks for reading - can anyone help me?


edit - To update: I disabled FFDShow in TheaterTek, and turned on the NVidia Post Processor instead - interestingly, the exact same behaviour results. So it probably isn't a FFDShow specific problem, rather something in my configuration. I've no idea what it could be though..has anyone else observed these results before?

 

[PeterJK]

Hmm..my guess is now that given both FFDShow and the Nvidia Post Processor output in YV12, the issue relates to that color space, or more specifically, my machine's rendering of it. Is YV12 supposed to look like that?


Any help gratefully received..


edit - another update. Seems it's actually not a color output problem at all. The difference seems to be due to software rendering vs hardware rendering. Without ffdshow, DXVA is used, and things look "normal". Disabling DXVA yields the same picture as when ffdshow is used - I just found out that ffdshow forces the player to use software rendering only. So I guess my question is - is there any way around this? If not, surely it isn't worth the sacrifice in rendering quality to use ffdshow?

 

[Owen]

I have had the same problem with NVDVD in software mode and many others have noticed it as well.

I have tried five different versions and am currently using the latest Nvidia release and latest patch for the VPP but still have the low resolution color problem.

Nothing seems to fix the problem, so I have given up on NVDVD for the time being and am using Dscaler5 decoder that works MUCH better on my system with Radion 9600Pro video.


Regards,


Owen


___________________________

The FFDShow resize-sharpen dude.

 

[madpoet]

I'm really thinking it's something about the interaction with ATI cards. I just don't see it with my 6800, and I don't recall anyoneelse seeing it with NVidia cards either.

 

[Ilkand]

is that with Pal too, madpoet?

 

[Vern Dias]

You are running 32 bit color on your desktop, correct?


Vern

 

[usabrian]

Nope, looks great here (with 6800GT) Better than ever actually. Brian

 

[silx]

try using powerdvd instead

mine works fine

 

[Mark_A_W]

Quote:

Originally posted by silx try using powerdvd instead mine works fine

??? If you want it to look crap, Powerdvd will do that just fine.


The whole point of all this fiddling around is we aren't happy with Powerdvd.

 

[Owen]

I am using 32bit color and have also just updated my Radeon drivers to 4.10 with no improvement.

WinDVD, Elecard and Dscaler decoders all work fine.

The problem is also NOT PAL related as I have the same problem (even more noticeable) with 1920x1080i 60Hz HD .TS file playback. DXVA playback works perfectly.


At this stage, I am prepared to give the NVDVD decoder the benefit of the doubt, but I am struggling to understand how the video card can have any relevance to the problem with the decoder in software mode.

The decoder is passing the decoded video to the Windows renderer (Overlay, VMR7, VMR9) which then passes it to the video drivers and hardware, either for Radeon or Nvidia.

Since the same renderers, drivers and hardware are being used by WinDVD, Elecard, Dscaler and they all work perfectly, it is logical to place the blame squarely on the NVDVD decoder.

Anyway, I have seen reports of Nvidia card users who also have this problem.


I am using a CRT display that has virtually unlimited color resolution.

It may well be that digital displays are masking this fault with the NVDVD decoder.


For the cynically minded, there is always the possibility the Nvidia deliberately crippled NVDVD with Radeon or non Nvidia hardware. It would not be difficult to do. Just a thought.


Regards,


Owen

 

[madpoet]

I suppose it's possible (though it would really be a STUPID marketing move). Owen, the reports of NVidia users with color problems were, I believe, the original issue that was cleared up with the patch. I could be wrong. As for digital vrs CRT, I do not see the issues on my 57" RPTV either and it's been ISF'd. So I don't think that's it. Unless you mean it only occurs over VGA and not DVI, which I suppose is possible. I use only DVI. It could also be a drivers issue... something that the NVidia drivers recognize correctly and the Radeons don't. Just tossing out ideas.

 

[Owen]

Madpoet,


There are two problems with NVDVD.

The CUE problem with the VPP was fixed with a patch but the main color resolution problem with the decoder on its own in software mode has not changed.


Its not a display interconnect problem or it would show up with all decoders.


Regards,


Owen

 

[madpoet]

Right, I understand. I'm trying to narrow down the conditions where the color resolution problem occurs. I have not read any NVidia users who had the resolution problem, only people who had the CUE problem. I know I've read a few ATI users who had it. So if that holds true, then it's something in the interaction with the codecs. NVidia has claimed in the past that they "optimized" the codecs for NVidia cards. So I suppose it's possible that something in that "optimization" is causing problems. I guess if we want to be scientific about it we should do a short survey...


1) What video card do you use?

2) What driver version do you use?

3) What is your NVidia codec version?

4) Have you applied the CUE patch?

5) What is your display type?

6) Do you connect via DVI, component, or VGA?


That should be enough info to detect a pattern, if one exists.

 

[Vern Dias]

No issues:


1) NVidia 6800GT

2) 66.81

3) 4.0.59

4) Yes

5) Sony Qualia

6) DVI HDTV 1080I VMR7 / VMR9


Additional Info: P4 XP SP2 No Color banding FFDSHow 20041012-sse2


Vern

 

[Bartok]

As Owen reported, the red chroma bug has been fixed. Nothing to be seen on my system since the second TT patch. However I still get color banding issues on my system in software mode, either on overlay or VMR9 (fresh and clean Windows XP installed and the NVIDIA codecs are the only codecs installed on my system). I indeed have an NVIDIA video card with the latest drivers, granted it is only a GeForce4 MX 440 (may be this is the problem). I’m running 32 bit color on my desktop (VGA and 800x600).


Look at Titanic, the opening scenes where the submarine dives into deep waters with a blue halo. A lot of banding is visible there.

 

[Rushmore Grad]

Bartok,


You are not seeing the chroma bug. Titanic was badly encoded (interlaced 60hz) and thus suffers from the Interlaced Chroma Problem (the ICP). There is no way of removing this without a chroma filter. I have asked nvidia to add one when dealing with these problem dvds but the issue has been ignored.


Have a look at the hometheaterhifi p. scan guide for more information.

 

[PeterJK]

I would be surprised if the issue related to graphics hardware...the problem is in software rendering mode, so the graphics card shouldn't really be doing anything. That said, I've heard there is an option in windows to let your graphics card accelerate any 2D image operations, so perhaps the graphics card isn't compeltely out of the equation - I don't know how to disable that acceleration either.


In addition to the above problems, I cannot run TT at all under Overlay and VMR7 modes - only VMR9 works. It's been suggested on the TT forums that this may be related to the software playback problem...I've also been advised to do a clean install of my Cat drivers (i've just been overwriting previous drivers up until now), so we'll see if that's the cause.

 

[Michele Spinolo]

Quote:

Originally posted by PeterJK I would be surprised if the issue related to graphics hardware...the problem is in software rendering mode, so the graphics card shouldn't really be doing anything. That said, I've heard there is an option in windows to let your graphics card accelerate any 2D image operations, so perhaps the graphics card isn't compeltely out of the equation - I don't know how to disable that acceleration either.

IMHO it's not completly correct: when used in software mode nVidia decoder used with NVPP or Ffdshow or both output the image in YV12 color format, than videocard has to perform a YV12 to RGB32 (or RGB24 or RGB16 depending on color depth used).


Maybe some problem could be addressed to this operation, but I think the only way to get rid of this problem is follow madpoet's points adding TT2 (or ZP) chain used.

 

[madpoet]

To answer my own survey:


1) 6800GT

2) Modified 65.90 (NVStrap softmod to make it think I have a Quadro 4000)

3) Whatever the latest TT2.02 version is

4) Yes

5) 720P LCD projector and 1080i CRT RPTV

6) DVI


No issues

 

[PeterJK]

Quote:

Originally posted by Michele Spinolo IMHO it's not completly correct: when used in software mode nVidia decoder used with NVPP or Ffdshow or both output the image in YV12 color format, than videocard has to perform a YV12 to RGB32 (or RGB24 or RGB16 depending on color depth used). Maybe some problem could be addressed to this operation, but I think the only way to get rid of this problem is follow madpoet's points adding TT2 (or ZP) chain used.

Fair enough points. I should mention however, that I have these exact issues if I use no post processing (just the non-hardware accelerated playback on it's own), NVPP on its own, FFDShow on its own, or NVPP followed by FFDShow. The common thing between all those configurations is that they all force TT not to use hardware acceleration, which is why I'm looking at that as the cause.


With no post processing, and simple software dvd playback, I would have thought the involvement of the graphics card would be very limited? Sure it has to display it, but before that step..?