AVS Forum banner
Status
Not open for further replies.
1 - 19 of 19 Posts

· Registered
Joined
·
36 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I have read the threads till my eyes bled and I couldn't find this answer so here goes....


I need sound absorption for mostly mid's and high's.


Going to build wall panels BUT they need to be FLUSH with the wall, and no more than 2" thick.


Will fiberglass (linacoustic) or Sonex (or pyramids or other type of foam) work best to absorb the mid's and high's?


I read all the posts that say fiberglass is just as good as Sonex and much cheaper, but I guess the difference is I need it FLUSH with the wall. Which should I use?
 

· Registered
Joined
·
5,004 Posts
Quote:
Which should I use
I think of linacoustic as an available tool for treatment of one absorbtion spectrum. Just as Sonex is an available tool for treatment of a different absorbtion spectrum.

It's not a question of which one is right, and which one is wrong. They aren't even the only two. For starters there's lots of other manufacturers and materials (fiberglass, rockwool, cotton, polyester), and techniques (polys, helmholtz, tube, corner, wideband) and mountings (against the wall, out from the wall, over a corner, interchangeable boxes, shuttered, portable, hinged adjustable).


The goal is to:

a) get rid of first reflections

b) have absorbtion over the remainder of the room hitting your target Theoretical RT60 over as many frequencies as possible, certainly from 125hz to 4khz.


Foam: Sonex 2" 0.06, 0.25, 0.56, 0.81, 0.90, 0.91


(source: http://www.aptcommunications.com/abcoef.htm ).


Linacoustic RC 2" (51mm) at wall 0.25, 0.66, 1.00, 1.05, 1.02, 1.01


(source: http://www.bobgolds.com/AbsorptionCoefficients.htm )


For each frequency you multiply the absorbtion coefficient by the area of the absorber to get the number of sabins at that frequency. You want to have roughtly the same number of sabins at each frequency.


For a truely wonderful description (i.e. the whole book, over and over with examples and ideas and applications) of RT60 calculation with options, have a look at http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...glance&s=books


Your walls may already be giving you some bass absorbtion, and little high frequency absorbtion. For example, a wall might have the following absorbtion coefficients: 0.10, 0.08, 0.05, 0.03, 0.03, 0.03

Now that doesn't look like a lot, but you have a lot of wall, so when you multiply it by the area you get a lot more sabins at 125hz than you do at 4khz.


So something with the opposite absorbtion spectrum to the walls, like linacoustic or Sonex, could be used to balance that out. Obviously since Linacoustic absorbs more than Sonex, you will cover less wall AREA with Linacoustic to hit your target absorbtion than you would with Sonex.


The furnature and carpet and even the people in the room contribute to absorbtion in various frequencies. You can ignore the difference in absorbtion between buttered and unbuttered popcorn. :D


Similarly, carpet's absorbtion coefficients can be balanced by making a ceiling mounted ContraCarpet helmholtz absorber.


Once you get the sabins the same for all frequencies, then you add wideband absorbtion (0.99, 0.99, 0.99, 0.99, 0.99, 0.99) to get the room down to the RT60 you want. For example, if a stereo music Control Room should have similar RT60 times to a Home Theatre (because they are both 'listening rooms'), you may want to use the RT60 = 0.25 * (( ProposedRoomVolume / 100 m^3 ) ^ .3333


(source: http://forum.studiotips.com/viewtopic.php?t=410 note, scroll down a bit and you'll see various room sizes already calculated in both metric and imperial)



Keep in mind this is just one approach for predicting possible future construction. I believe that the real experts (Dennis) do it differently.

Once the room is built, doing it by measurements is probably much better, such as using programs like ETF5 to do measurements to tell you what is wrong and then build things to solve those specific problems, and then re-measure.



So, what I'm saying is, which one you should use, and how much area you want to cover with it, and on which surfaces you wish to put it (walls, ceiling), are dependant upon what the current absorbtion in the room is, and the room size (volume and dimensions).
 

· Registered
Joined
·
3,258 Posts
Sonex has a finished surface and doesn't require a fabric covering like fiberglass. But it is a less efficient absorber for an equal thickness of material.


There are also the aesthetics. Sonex-type foam gives you a recording studio look, which you either love or hate.


Regards,

Terry
 

· Registered
Joined
·
36 Posts
Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Ok...so since I have to wrap it (or the wife gives me the boot), both are still in the running. BUT since it sounds like the fiberglass does at least as good or better on absorption when flush with the wall, Linacoustic is probably my best bet. (I need the flexibility, the OC 700's are too rigid and won't work for my application). Thanks for all your help.


There is still sooo much to learn past what screen to buy...after I kill my echo, I'll get that book and see if I can't tweak it some more. Thanks BasementBob.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
1,920 Posts
You can save a touch of $$, and get better performance by taking your 1" thick panels of whatever and mounting them 1" from the wall with 1-by furring strips. By having the airspace between the wall and the panel, you change where on the "sine wave" the absorbtion is taking place.


Absorbtion works roughly by a brute-force method, converting the kinetic energy of the sound-wave to heat. Since a sound wave is actually just particles of air that are compressed and rarefacted, those particles move back and forth. Our particles of air are moving the fastest at the 1/4 wavelength point from the wall, for whatever given frequency- so some quick math tells us that 2" is the 1/4 wavelength point of 565Hz which is just into the upper-midbass/lower-midrange frequencies.


What I have to say is a little odd though, is that usually people have more of a problem with uneven bass than problems with mids and highs, unless you're using this to treat the first-reflection points.


Just a little info.

Dan


I just realized that my quick math is wrong, but I don't have the time to fix it right now- I promise I'll correct it this afternoon sometime. -Dan
 

· Registered
Joined
·
36 Posts
Discussion Starter · #6 ·
I have a lot of hard surfaces...hard tile floors (covering with some area rugs), large windows (partially covering with drapes), a small mirrored wall (no covering) and the rest are walls/doors. New house so I don't have a lot of stuff in there to suck up the sound. I know it is not a great space to work with for a home theater but it's all I have. It's very lively. It's also a big space (great room) with 10 foot high ceilings. I don't have my equipment up yet because I am waiting for my wall unit to get delivered...just trying to kill a lot of the echo in the room by having more surfaces that absorb sound, since I have so many that reflect sound. After I get these panels up and the wall unit and system are up, I can work on other issues (if I have too much bass etc.).
 

· Registered
Joined
·
1,920 Posts
After revisiting my earlier math mistake, the frequency that 1" thick 7lb/cu ft fiberglass panel spaced 1" from a surface is effective to is 141.25 Hz- well into the midbass area.


In relation to your reflective/live room issues: some easy, wife-friendly treatments are; upholstered furniture instead of leather, a large area rug with pad underneath, thick drapes (velvet or equivalent), a coat rack with winter coats on it (sounds odd, but works well), bookshelves with books of varying depth placed in random order, artwork or decorative displays with elevation reliefs mounted on the walls (you know, that candle/pictureframe/wall-mounted shelf-stuff women like so much)


THX actually has a "home" room at their facility in California that uses just such treatments as opposed to "real" acoustic treatments so they can test how THX certified equipment performs in the real-world.


-Some suggestions from someone whose made his fair share of decorative compromises.


Dan
 

· Premium Member
Joined
·
1,217 Posts
Quote:
Originally posted by DanFrancis
What I have to say is a little odd though, is that usually people have more of a problem with uneven bass than problems with mids and highs, unless you're using this to treat the first-reflection points.


Just a little info.

Dan


I just realized that my quick math is wrong, but I don't have the time to fix it right now- I promise I'll correct it this afternoon sometime. -Dan
Thanks for that, Dan!


I am new to acoustics so I have a few questions.


1) How does one even out the bass? My room will have this problem. I am using RPG's "Room Optimizer" program to help with things like placements and such before building but it reveals that my bass won't even out until about 200Hz.


2) can you PM the calculation formulas for measuring (or predicting the measurements) for moving the material 1" from the walls.


Thanks,

Dan
 

· Registered
Joined
·
5,004 Posts
DanFrancis:


I believe that 1/4 wavelength hypothosis has little to do with the real world. It assumes a sine wave, which most music isn't. It assumes that the sound wave is going straight into the wall and coming straight out again (as opposed to an another angle of incidence, or several angles of incidence). The only way this would happen would be if you put your speaker in the middle of the room aimed at an absorber, and sat on top of the speaker looking at the absorber. I don't think that's a typical speaker placement. Even if I'm totally wrong here (because I'm not an acredited acoustician), measurements are much better than theory. So here are some measurements (both on the wall and with 16" air gap):
http://www.bobgolds.com/AbsorptionCoefficients.htm


You are certainly correct that mounting them a little out from the wall will give more absorbtion at lower frequencies. Mounting them diagonally over a corner (or a horizontally on a ceiling 'corner') does the same thing only better.


16" air gap is the standard air gap for suspended ceiling tile systems, so that's why there are lots of measurements.

Air gap on the walls is a little less well measured, although a rule of thumb seems to be that flat panels near the walls should average about the same as the thickness of the panel. So placing a 4" thick panel with a 4" air gap behind it isn't a bad thing. This is a real iffy 'rule' though, so your milage will vary.


None of these mounting techniques represent specific recommendations for how Dan Woodruff or jgator should treat their room. Treatment should follow Diagnosis.


(BTW, not all foams are bad. megaLENRD's are cool if you've got the dollars and are easy to install.)
 

· Registered
Joined
·
5,004 Posts
Dan Woodruff:


Diagnosis:


Any chance you could run ETF5 and do a 0-300ms 3D plot of Low Frequency Response from say 3 of your favourite seating positions? That, combined with:

a) room dimensions

b) speaker positions (x, y, z)

c) listener (microphone) positions (x, y, z)

should allow you to look for long modal resonances, and short-bounce comb-filter issues.


edit: modes are better measured where Dennis said below ! (I think short-bounce issues should be done at the prime seating positions)
 

· Premium Member
Joined
·
8,712 Posts
Actually....if you want to see what frequencies are modal, place your microphone against a side wall to see width modes, a front/back wall to see length modes, and against the ceiling or floor, to see height modal frequencies. Modal frequencies will peak at the room boundary. Problems at listening positions not seen at the boundaries are non-modal issues.
 

· Premium Member
Joined
·
1,217 Posts
Thanks Bob and Dennis!


Out back, we have an old 3 story apt. building that burned before we bought the place and it was only partially refinished. I have been using it as storage space and I'm wanting to convert the ground (middle) floor. Two of the walls of the "future theater" aren't built yet and the other two aren't finished, so the current measurements would not mean much.


I'm trying to grasp a basic understanding before I finalize my decision on wall location. I have been using several mode calculators and will most likely be following the RPG program that is designed to help pin that down.


So, I'm still in the theory stage and am wanting to get as flat a room as possible before having to go into acoustical treatment. My thinking is that the best way to solve room modes is to set the room size to minimize modes. Then get into solving the problem of getting a flat frequency response with the modes that are unavoidable. The biggest advantage I seem to have is that I can shake the entire building if I want and it sets more than 160ft away from the nearest neighbors and road. :D


edit:

I forgot to ask: is there a prefered mic when using ETF5?
 

· Premium Member
Joined
·
1,217 Posts
Ethan,


Thanks!

I understand not being able to get away from room treatments. I fully intend to use acoustic treatments and bass traps. I just want to get the best from the room dimensions so that when I get to the treatment stage it is more effective and I don't wind up attempting to correct for a mode that could have been avoided. At the same time I want to be able to have as large a room as is feasible.
 
1 - 19 of 19 Posts
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top