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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Ok, maybe my opinion won't amount to a hill of beans to anyone but I'm not partial to any brand so at least I feel it is as unbiased as an opinion will come (unlike me comparing Xbox to PS2 hehehe).

I've read so many conflicting opinions about gaming on the new Sammy 1080p and I almost decided it was just videophiles who noticed something minor about gaming and blew it out of proportion. If I wasn't a serious gamer then I would have already ordered the Sammy 1080p but I had to make sure.


So, Tweeter got their new model in and also has the new Sony KDF-E60A20. I loaded up the Xbox and 2 controllers and hit the road. I noticed the brilliance of the picture of the new Sammy as I approached it and wanted to try it first. My brother was with me and he hooked it all up via the component cables. Se set up multiplayer Halo 2 and went at it. Well, I'm sad to say that it took all of about 1 minute to know that something was terribly wrong as I heard my brother say, "This isn't good...." The latency is there and it is BAD. It is noticable and you don't have to be a die hard gamer to notice. I tried sniping and everything felt jerky because it was lagging behind your movement. I'm not an awesome sniper so I asked him to meet me in the middle on Ascension to have a duel weapon battle. I was saddened by what I saw. As I tried to strafe left and right and keep an aim on him it become one big mess that was out of control. It was bad enough that I noticed when I looked right and then immediatly left and right again that it was not doing the action I told it until a complete step behind. In other words it didn't start aiming right until I was already looking left. I've seen people say that you should decrease the sensativity down but this is out of the question for Halo 2 because others will be all over you and you will be moving slowly. Another thing I noticed was that the TV seemed to OVER inhance the edges of walls as jaggies appeared very clearly as you panned. I chalked this up to the settings on the TV but that is certainly being forgiving. One last thing I noticed was that the new Sammy was very drastic from dark to light, unlike my current Pioneer Elite 610 which I prefer. When zooming with the sniper it got very bright in the smaller zoomed area but very dark outside that. This makes it difficult to have any further vision other than that limited area in the center square of your scope. I think this two could have been helped by altering the TV settings. Let me be clear though. My brother had no input from me yet before he noticed the same horrible latency in the movement.

I asked the sales rep if I could try the older Sammy and of course he agreed. Again, my brother and I agreed although I didn't bend his ear with my comments before I heard his. The older Sammy is MUCH BETTER. We still felt a tiny bit of latency but not even in the same realm as the new 1080p. It was doable but still not perfect. The jaggies looked about the same but the overly bright and overly dark issue with the sniper didn't seem as bad.

We unplugged everything and moved it to the Sony KDF-E60A20. As we started the same game on the same map smiles came across both of our faces. The control was DEAD ON. My brother immediately said, "Now this is spot on. It is perfect!" I looked and didn't see the issue with the sniper and I also noticed that the doorways didn't have near the jaggies. On the downside I noticed a tad of motion blur when moving the view very quickly from right to left. Just a minute amount on a doorway it seemed. My brother couldn't tell at all but I think it was there. After testing a bit more and feeling good about the game I compared this new Sony to their previous model for black depth and was pleasantly surprised as I had him put on The Crow, which is almost all dark. It was very easy to see the darker blacks on the new model. The DLPs (specifically the Sammys since that is what I've been checking out) still have them for sure but I finally saw an LCD with black level that I felt I could live with. It looked true black or darn close.

Well, I'm sure someone will think I'm crazy and I'm more than happy to listen to opinions or thoughts in how to make the Sammys work better. Hope this helps someone though. Do NOT buy the Sammy 1080p for gaming before testing first. Trust me.
 

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Great post! Thanks alot. I was worried about the Sony but you cleared that up for me. KDFE55A20 here I come... =)


Anybody know a good place to get a Sony set that has a similar TVAuthority return policy?
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kainan
Ok, maybe my opinion won't amount to a hill of beans to anyone but I'm not partial to any brand so at least I feel it is as unbiased as an opinion will come (unlike me comparing Xbox to PS2 hehehe).

I've read so many conflicting opinions about gaming on the new Sammy 1080p and I almost decided it was just videophiles who noticed something minor about gaming and blew it out of proportion. If I wasn't a serious gamer then I would have already ordered the Sammy 1080p but I had to make sure.


So, Tweeter got their new model in and also has the new Sony KDF-E60A20. I loaded up the Xbox and 2 controllers and hit the road. I noticed the brilliance of the picture of the new Sammy as I approached it and wanted to try it first. My brother was with me and he hooked it all up via the component cables. Se set up multiplayer Halo 2 and went at it. Well, I'm sad to say that it took all of about 1 minute to know that something was terribly wrong as I heard my brother say, "This isn't good...." The latency is there and it is BAD. It is noticable and you don't have to be a die hard gamer to notice. I tried sniping and everything felt jerky because it was lagging behind your movement. I'm not an awesome sniper so I asked him to meet me in the middle on Ascension to have a duel weapon battle. I was saddened by what I saw. As I tried to strafe left and right and keep an aim on him it become one big mess that was out of control. It was bad enough that I noticed when I looked right and then immediatly left and right again that it was not doing the action I told it until a complete step behind. In other words it didn't start aiming right until I was already looking left. I've seen people say that you should decrease the sensativity down but this is out of the question for Halo 2 because others will be all over you and you will be moving slowly. Another thing I noticed was that the TV seemed to OVER inhance the edges of walls as jaggies appeared very clearly as you panned. I chalked this up to the settings on the TV but that is certainly being forgiving. One last thing I noticed was that the new Sammy was very drastic from dark to light, unlike my current Pioneer Elite 610 which I prefer. When zooming with the sniper it got very bright in the smaller zoomed area but very dark outside that. This makes it difficult to have any further vision other than that limited area in the center square of your scope. I think this two could have been helped by altering the TV settings. Let me be clear though. My brother had no input from me yet before he noticed the same horrible latency in the movement.

I asked the sales rep if I could try the older Sammy and of course he agreed. Again, my brother and I agreed although I didn't bend his ear with my comments before I heard his. The older Sammy is MUCH BETTER. We still felt a tiny bit of latency but not even in the same realm as the new 1080p. It was doable but still not perfect. The jaggies looked about the same but the overly bright and overly dark issue with the sniper didn't seem as bad.

We unplugged everything and moved it to the Sony KDF-E60A20. As we started the same game on the same map smiles came across both of our faces. The control was DEAD ON. My brother immediately said, "Now this is spot on. It is perfect!" I looked and didn't see the issue with the sniper and I also noticed that the doorways didn't have near the jaggies. On the downside I noticed a tad of motion blur when moving the view very quickly from right to left. Just a minute amount on a doorway it seemed. My brother couldn't tell at all but I think it was there. After testing a bit more and feeling good about the game I compared this new Sony to their previous model for black depth and was pleasantly surprised as I had him put on The Crow, which is almost all dark. It was very easy to see the darker blacks on the new model. The DLPs (specifically the Sammys since that is what I've been checking out) still have them for sure but I finally saw an LCD with black level that I felt I could live with. It looked true black or darn close.

Well, I'm sure someone will think I'm crazy and I'm more than happy to listen to opinions or thoughts in how to make the Sammys work better. Hope this helps someone though. Do NOT buy the Sammy 1080p for gaming before testing first. Trust me.
Nice, accurate post. Thank You. Your experiment has been mirrored by many others. Sony 3LCD's are great sets for gamers:
 

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Kainan,


Nice post and thanks for the review. It has been mentioned that you can change the input name to "game" on these Samsung 1080P sets and this apparently reduces the video processing and the "lag time". It only allows 480i input I believe. Have you heard of this and did you get a chance to try it?
 

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Valid and vital points jdmoser


We need to know if you actually followed Samsungs instructions for playing games - you MUST place the TV in GAME Mode you cannot just pick up plug/play you must set the TV up for playing the games. Please report back whether you did this? Otherwise it really invalidates the review as the Samsung Manual clearly states this must be done FIRST and the owners are well aware of this and have reported correcting 50ms lag to where it isn't noticeable once they followed the instructions and Used GAME MODE. Thanks for taking the time. :D
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
I hate to beat a dead horse but I thought I would post up about a fellow gamer who tried the new Sammy at a different store. His disgust for the latency was as bad as mine. His way of describing the amount of lag was with the sniper. He said he noticed it lagged to the point that you had already completely released the trigger (which has a good amount of motion since it isn't a normal button) before the bullet actually showed to fire from the gun. He was glad I told him to check it out because he had viewed the Sammy 1080p and was in love with the picture for HD and DVD. Just one more opinion of VERY BAD latency on the 1080p.


One thing I might mention is that I did NOT test out any of the Mits DLPs. Maybe they are better?


Anyone have any opinions on good online stores to purchase the SONY KDF-E60A20 ? Tweeter is having a sale this weekend and has it for $3249 plus tax. From what I've seen it doesn't appear that Sony has as much room for people to jack up the price because I don't see a plethora of online retailers with prices drastically lower than MSRP. I wouldn't mind a PM from someone if they have thoughts on this and can't post due to rules. Hopefully I didn't break any rules by posting the Tweeter price.
 

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How about answering our question?


Did either of you even read the Samsung Manual and set the TV for GAME MODE?



I'm not trying to be critical of you - you went out of your way to help and report these events but if we are going to rely on the factual basis the conditions must be right. If you understand what a HDTV is and the fact it's upconverting to an optimal resolution of 1080P(i) then you should understand why a 480P Game would create an issue technically. I play Xbox myself but all we're asking is that you follow the Samsung Manual just as a new owner would and set it to Game Mode. Then if what you report back is consistent then we know a flaw exists in the Game Mode and for many it in fact could be a deal breaker. Your efforts are appreciated but if you just connected and plug in without knowing the requirements of the HD set then you got a false result. Many would be interested in whether gaming worked for you as a serious gamer following the Samsung Manual recommendations. I thank you for your efforts! :D
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdmoser
Kainan,


Nice post and thanks for the review. It has been mentioned that you can change the input name to "game" on these Samsung 1080P sets and this apparently reduces the video processing and the "lag time". It only allows 480i input I believe. Have you heard of this and did you get a chance to try it?
Jdmoser,


This isn't an option for me. I refuse to buy a $3000+ HDTV and then play all my games from here on out in 480i. To me this is a joke to even attempt for a gamer like myself. I will try to go back and test this if I can so I can relay the message back here but I've seen post after post from people already saying they tested and it didn't help. Doing my best to test the TV for what I would use it for. I wouldn't buy a high dollar new model TV to play in 480i. Hopefully you get my point and don't take this as a jab or anything.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by westa6969
How about answering our question?


Did either of you even read the Samsung Manual and set the TV for GAME MODE?
:D


Chill, Bro. Hardcore Gamers don't go for this kind of cash to play games in 480i:) :)
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kainan
Jdmoser,


This isn't an option for me. I refuse to buy a $3000+ HDTV and then play all my games from here on out in 480i. To me this is a joke to even attempt for a gamer like myself. I will try to go back and test this if I can so I can relay the message back here but I've seen post after post from people already saying they tested and it didn't help. Doing my best to test the TV for what I would use it for. I wouldn't buy a high dollar new model TV to play in 480i. Hopefully you get my point and don't take this as a jab or anything.
No jab taken. I am not a serious gamer. More curious than anything. If you do test the Mitsubishi make sure its the 1080i model as you have shown that the 720p DLP models are not as severe. My theory is a combination of higher resolution and DNIE. Its very interesting that the Sony A20 handled it so well. I strongly doubt that the various light engines DLP, LCD, SXRD, LCOS, etc... have much to do with lag but the power of their video processors might. Just a thought.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
I'll post back with my results if I manage to test it again. I have no idea why the Sony did so well. To be quite frank I was VERY surprised.


westa6969,


It doesn't even take a hard core gamer to not want to play a game in 480i on a 61" TV. I mean, if I buy a TV and it tells me to avoid DVD players and only use VCRs I'm not going to take that serious either. ;)
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdmoser
No jab taken. I am not a serious gamer. More curious than anything. If you do test the Mitsubishi make sure its the 1080i model as you have shown that the 720p DLP models are not as severe. My theory is a combination of higher resolution and DNIE. Its very interesting that the Sony A20 handled it so well. I strongly doubt that the various light engines DLP, LCD, SXRD, LCOS, etc... have much to do with lag but the power of their video processors might. Just a thought.
I don't know any more than you why this is. It just is, despite the protestations of the blind defenders. I suspect you are correct in that the most likely culprit would seem to be the quality or extent of the video processing in each set. Maybe a Video Engineer could chime in with some valuable info?
 

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Damn this thread scared me since i have not tried gaming on my HLR5087w (Samsung 720p pedestal).


So what did i do? I connected my Xbox via component cables to my TV to see if my TV suffered the same ill fate.


The first thing i did was change my Xbox's video settings, i set it so it now knows its connected to a HDTV capable of 480P, 720P, and 1080i.


After that i went into split screen mode to just mess around and do some tests. I tried the assault rifle and it fires 2 or 3 shots after i let go of the trigger, that is completely normal. Then i tried spinning in circles with my character, as soon as i let go of the analog stick my character stopped spinning.


I popped in Forza Motorsport and it's still as controlable as ever. It's a racing sim so lag would have made the car really hard to control.


Anyways, im guess im just reporting that my Samsung HLR5087w has no type of lag when gaming. And there is no videogame mode that i can turn on orr off.


BTW DNIE was on the whole time. I tried turning it off and it made no difference except for making things fuzzy and flat looking, kinda like most PS2 games lol
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Kirt 87w
Damn this thread scared me since i have not tried gaming on my HLR5087w (Samsung 720p pedestal).


So what did i do? I connected my Xbox via component cables to my TV to see if my TV suffered the same ill fate.


The first thing i did was change my Xbox's video settings, i set it so it now knows its connected to a HDTV capable of 480P, 720P, and 1080i.


After that i went into split screen mode to just mess around and do some tests. I tried the assault rifle and it fires 2 or 3 shots after i let go of the trigger, that is completely normal. Then i tried spinning in circles with my character, as soon as i let go of the analog stick my character stopped spinning.


I popped in Forza Motorsport and it's still as controlable as ever. It's a racing sim so lag would have made the car really hard to control.


Anyways, im guess im just reporting that my Samsung HLR5087w has no type of lag when gaming. And there is no videogame mode that i can turn on orr off.


BTW DNIE was on the whole time. I tried turning it off and it made no difference except for making things fuzzy and flat looking, kinda like most PS2 games lol
It's good to hear that you don't see any problems. As I said, to me and my brother the 67 model that we tried felt like it had a very slight delay. We both agreed that it wasn't bad but that it did feel a tad slower than playing at home on the Elite 610. Maybe your set is better than the one we tried or maybe you are used to how it feels. When you are talking about something that slight I think it could easily be compensated for and not even feel wrong. However, if it is like the 67 that we played on then you would notice a minor difference between playing on it and playing on the Sony or my older Pioneer. Just my 2 cents on that one.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kainan
It's good to hear that you don't see any problems. As I said, to me and my brother the 67 model that we tried felt like it had a very slight delay. We both agreed that it wasn't bad but that it did feel a tad slower than playing at home on the Elite 610. Maybe your set is better than the one we tried or maybe you are used to how it feels. When you are talking about something that slight I think it could easily be compensated for and not even feel wrong. However, if it is like the 67 that we played on then you would notice a minor difference between playing on it and playing on the Sony or my older Pioneer. Just my 2 cents on that one.
Well it can't be that im used to it. It's the first time i ever played on my Samsung.


Anyway i tried the Halo test again, only this time i used the battle rifle that i believe shoots faster.


On my old 35 inch or 36 inch Sony Trinitron, the battle rifle shot 3 shots if i i pressed the trigger all the way down super quickly. It seemed as if the shots were not fired until i had already let go of the trigger.


The exact same thing happened on my Samsung DLP tho.
 

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One minor point here. Lag should only affect 480i sources which is why the Game mode only applies there. Obviously we've heard reports to the contrary. Halo 2 supposedly has a known bug where it lags with 480p in widescreen mode. Did you get whatever patch you need from XBox Live to alleviate that? I imagine you did since it ran on the Sony just fine.


Cush
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cush1978
One minor point here. Lag should only affect 480i sources which is why the Game mode only applies there. Obviously we've heard reports to the contrary. Halo 2 supposedly has a known bug where it lags with 480p in widescreen mode. Did you get whatever patch you need from XBox Live to alleviate that? I imagine you did since it ran on the Sony just fine.


Cush
Cush,


In all honesty I have never heard of the bug you are talking about. The clan I play with has about 12 or so members and we all have HDTVs and we all play a TON of Halo 2. Not one person has heard of this supposed 480p issue with Halo 2. Also, 99.9% of all Xbox games are 480p. There were a couple that slipped by in the early stages of the Xbox existance but not any for a long time that I know of. Hitman might be one of the ones that was in 480i. Anyway, when it comes to games, xbox and HDTV I'm pretty well informed because I know so many older gamers who are playing on HDTVs a lot. Halo 2 is not 480i and has never had the problem you describe, to my knowledge. Heck, even Halo wasn't in 480i.

Anyway, the point still remains. Gaming technology is moving forward as well as TV technology. Why would someone want to buy a TV that was moving BACKWARDS for games unless they didn't care much about them? I wouldn't mind having 2 TVs though so I could have the Samsung 1080p for movies and the Sony LCD for gaming. Anyone want to donate? LOL :D

If I can get back to try the TVs out again then I will. Thanks to everyone and their input. That's what makes this site great.
 

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Well, I got my 5678 this week and played Top Spin and EXPN 2k5 Friday night on xboxlive and was surprised to not have any lag issues. I do however notice the audio lag watching HD, but that is more of a MIPS issue than a particular brand.


I did not and refuse to put the set in "game" mode. I didn't pay this much for a tv to play in a lower resolution - ya gotta be kiddin' me!


So I'm not sure what the deal is. I've been playing xbox since beta, and xbox live since it debuted. I played on a 36" Sony CRT so you'd think I would notice the lag coming from that tv. I even looked closely when kicking the football to see if I lagged but didn't notice it. However, I must admit I am not a hardcore gamer (play once a week at best but have been playing since the beginning) so perhaps I'm not as sensitive to the lag? I don't believe that to be the case since I can see the audio lag (my wife has not noticed it yet and I'm not going to point it out until I upgrade to Denon 3805). But I'm not someone who excels at gamin' so perhaps the lag is within my noise floor?


Sorry to be contrarian and folks will need to make their own decision like I did. I bought Ghost Recon2Summt Strike today so I'll try and play that tonite and see if I see lag. I'll try the sniping deal also and report later. Ffrom the description above I think I will see it easily if it is there.


I do agree with the comment about contrast and blacker than blacks. This tv PQ is absolutely amazing but I find that I am still tweaking to get away from absolute blacks which mute the detail within. I have an old Avia cal disc (I assume they have updated this) but it is almost worthless since the tv PQ is so awesome to start with.


Anyway, sorry to throw some water on this topic. It was very important to me but I went for it and hopefully will not have the gaming lag. I do feel there is more testing to do (one reason to get some more gamin' in tonite).


More later.


I have Halo2 but don't play it much.
 
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