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Discussion Starter #1
Perhaps this is a little premature to announce officially.


However, according to proven tests (minutes ago), Hauppauge and Hipix have set a new "standard" file format for HDTV file recordings.


Unaltered .ts files is the chosen format. These files will allow 3rd party utilities like the DVbackup program have a standard to work with. .ts editing tools will soon follow...such as editing out commercials, etc.


No comments on accessDTV's chosen proprietary file format.




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Cool.


Maybe less of a surprise, but my WinTV-d also seems to be able to play WinTV-HD files.


The only short test recording I had was very dark so I'm not sure the colors were correct. It almost looked black & white.


Also I haven't tested yet whether these could then be deinterlaced by Dscaler but there's probably a good chance.


- Tom


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Can anyone confirm if WinTV-HD will play a series of HiPix files in order? Or will it just play one then stop?


Bob
 

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b,


It looks like you finally got your modulator.


-Mr. Wigggles


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Discussion Starter #5
I have a feeling we will know the answer to bpearses question today; which of coarse is a very important one. I would also like to know.


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Discussion Starter #7
Thanks Tom.


Now it's official. There IS finally an HDTV file standard.


Cliff, I think it's time to convince itech group to change their file format to THE STANDARD format. No longer does accessDTV have the excuse that the MPAA will "pick on" itech group specifically. The worst that could happen is MPAA could ask that ALL card manufacturers to have copy protection of some kind.


I am sure that itech group's sales will go through the roof once it's file format is compatible with the rest of the HDTV cards.


Cliff, I know that you are only human, and as an accessDTV card user yourself would LOVE to see this request forfilled. I can understand that itech group was nervous about the MPAA at first since accessDTV WAS the only card in production with recording capabilities. Things have changed now for the better. Hauppauge as a lot more to lose.


.ts, .trp files will soon be a common file format as .mpg. I know for a FACT that there are 3rd party software programs which are adding support for the "standard" HDTV file format.




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While they may (or not) have realized they want to, the ADTV folks may not be able to write unencrypted files.


I think the way this stuff works is that it sometimes becomes necessary to agree to certain copy protections in order to gain access to a needed license for something else. While forcing this sort of thing is not really legal by some clauses in the DMCA I still think that is how the various manufacturers get intimidated into agreeing to do something the consumers obviously think is a negative.


It's possible that the ADTV folks were roped into signing some contract in hopes of being licensed for future rights to certain copy crimped content like scrambled cable or satellite.


Because of MPAA paranoia I personally believe it will be a LONG time before scrambled content is licensed on the HTPC anyway but ADTV may have been trying to head in that direction. Many people still seem to believe the 'Secure PC' can somehow exist.


I think the ADTV is otherwise a very advanced card.Hopefully itech will still be able to find a way to reverse course if they see that Telemann & Hauppage are not immediately sued & hounded out of existence.


(unless they are http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/wink.gif )


- Tom




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â€Cliff, I know that you are only human, and as an accessDTV card user yourself would LOVE to see this request forfilled.â€


You assume entirely too much concerning me. I have both accessDTV and HiPix cards in two HTPCs and have never been bothered by the fact that accessDTV does not use a so called “STANDARD†file format because I have no reason to use them for anything other than the intended “Fair Use†time shifting feature.


I have absolutely no desire to contribute to the digital moral decay of this forum by circumventing the copyrights of the content owners. I would dearly love to have 720p HD-DVDs in my life time, but I don’t believe this will ever come to pass so long as members of this and other forums continue to openly discussions hacking and illegal distribution of intellectual properties. Make no mistake about it, sending a recorded copy of say an HBO-HD movie to a friend or other HiPix/WinTV-DT user is illegal distribution.



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Discussion Starter #10
Cliff,


Thanks for your input. As you know by now there are several other legitimate & completely legal reasons why people prefer to use .ts, .trp files. I am sure you have already seen several posts in respect to this. How are people going to feasibly/illegally trade SHo-HD HBO-HD files? Do you know of a way that we dont?


As far as I can tell there is no "moral decay" in this forum. I'm sorry you interpret it that way. As far as I can tell AVS members just want some flexibility for legitimate reasons explained many times before.


However, I do respect that there may be a good reason that itech group cannot comply readily and cannot be discussed publicly as Tom mentioned.


[This message has been edited by mkanet (edited 06-03-2001).]
 

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Sorry Cliff, but legality and morality are two very disparate things, especially when it comes to copyright law. The continual expansion of IP law as out-right purchased by the entertainment industry and the resulting anti-competitive, anti-innovative and anti-progressive monstrosity that exists today and effects our entire nation and a lot of Europe too, is far more morally bankrupt than any simple discussion of technology here oculd ever be.


It is also true that technological progress is amoral, it is the use that one puts it to that is moral or immoral. In that sense, we should all be pushing for the coolest and most functional features we can get from our vendors. To do otherwise is simply to be a less empowered consumer.
 

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Quote:
In that sense, we should all be pushing for the coolest and most functional features we can get from our vendors. To do otherwise is simply to be a less empowered consumer.
I believe that accessDTV fits the bill, even in protecting their future viability. They have provided innovated features that makes the product stand out.


As a side note, I remember going to night markets in Singapore in the 70's, presented with cornucopia of bootleg tapes for a $1. I believe that the side you'll take in this debate depends on whether you are the bootlegger/consumer that benefit from almost free source of content, or the artist/studio that is hurt by this type of black market commerce. The consumer may take comfort in the fact that their actions are benign, but for every demand there is supply. Because I don't have any intellectual property to protect, I could easily be on the side of easy access. But where I sit in Southern California, we are all affected by the trade of counterfit software, overclocked and remarked CPUs, and stolen hard drives and memory which has hurt the industry and the businesses, resulting in higher prices, lost revenues, and downright paranoia. Some of the confiscations have resulted in millions of dollars for one bust, you wonder how much was actually made overtime. This begs the question, do you blame the business and all the workers under this umbrealla including the artists, the cameramen, the mail clerk, etc.? I think not. I don't know when protecting your assets in America became such a reviled practice, it maybe when they recruited the politicians to the cause.


This is not to say that I agree with everything the powers-that-be enact. I think idiotic decisions are made in the name of copy protection consistantly in the effort to leave no open loopholes. But you can't blame the content providers for their reactions, knee jerk or not until we can control bootlegging of intellectual property.


Kei Clark
 

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Back a little closer to the thread topic, I note that WinTV-HD and HiPix files are still different. Although it appears that the two cards can read each others' files, there is not one "standard" file format.


Now, going OT: Could we please take the copyright discussion to a separate thread. I've read the same viewpoints probably 4 times in the last six months. I know there's passion on both sides, but does it have to surface in so many discussions?


(Just watch, though, I'll probably be censured for censoring free expression!)


Picky as ever,

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After reading my own post, I have to reprimand myself for being one-sided.


I believe that there is a beauty in archiving monumental moments if there ever was such on television. Some broadcasts are just very valuable and worth keeping. I believe by this time next year that archiving for own use will be a common practice, with hard drives hitting the 100-300GB capacities.


Some copy protection schemes are simply created for sakes of revenue enchancements in licenses, and this I believe is a vile practice.


Owners of HDTV recorders will be rewarded by low cost storage medium, which will enhance the HDTV jukebox experience with minimal limitations.


Kei Clark
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Hey Yogaman!


I'd like to stick to the original topic as well. itech group, Cliff, and Kei get the point. I'm sure if they could do something about it, they would. It could only benefit their sales.


Formats are slightly different...but the great news is that at least the formats are common enough for 3rd party software/shareware to take advantage of these files for legitimate purposes such as converting to .mpg .vcd, editing, DV archiving, etc for PERSONAL USE ...all which can be achieved on Hipix, WinTV-HD, WinTV-D, with the exception of accessDTV media files.




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â€Formats are slightly different...but the great news is that at least the formats are common enough for 3rd party software/shareware to take advantage of these files for legitimate purposes such as converting to .mpg .vcd, editing, DV archiving, etc for PERSONAL USE ...all which can be achieved on Hipix, WinTV-HD, WinTV-D, with the exception of accessDTV media files.â€


All three cards use the same ATSC TS “Standard†format, only the wrapper is different when recording to the hard drive.


When did converting intellectual property from its original digital format to another become legitimate under fair use? Can you site me a court case that supports this assumption?



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Quote:
When did converting intellectual property from its original digital format to another become legitimate under fair use? Can you site me a court case that supports this assumption?
What is the original 'digital format', Cliff? Thats such an arbitrary definition, and it depends on the perspective you are taking.


Is the original format how its stored on Hard Drive? How about if you store that out to DAT tape, where the file is likely padded out with error-correction bits? What about if I burn it to CD-ROM, where the digital file is encoded with Reed-Soloman bits? Are these still the 'original digital format'?


Regarding DVspoof, AccessDTV files will work with it. The problem is that AccessDTV software is very unresistant to byte-errors in its files. DVspoof, being a less-secure recording format than most, will exaggerate it. However, if you had byte-errors from AccessDTV files stored on CD-ROM, the result would be the same - an unplayable file. Not so in the case of the other two cards.


That being said, people are reporting bit-perfect recordings with the tools right now, so the bit-error-rate is surprisingly low.


Also, the benefits of an open, standard format become clear when you consider things like editting out the commercials before archiving, which is *completely* within fair use restrictions.


So thats the tradeoff, enhanced PVR functions vs. an open solution with more promising flexibility in the future.


Andy K.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Cliff,


I'm dont know the law well enough to discuss copyrights. It seems like some people here might have a better idea. I think Andy pretty much summarized it well.


"...So thats the tradeoff, enhanced PVR functions vs. an open solution with more promising flexibility in the future"


All I know is there are more people than you may think (and people you would never suspect) that would like to see accessDTV's media files similar to the rest of the digital cards...similar enough to work with 3rd party software without bringing special attention to accessDTV files.


I, as others, would really like to keep copyright intimidation and related stuff in a separate thread and allow people to talk about the original topic...as long as there is no blatant illegal discussions in this thread.



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Cliff, Kei, yogaman -


My apologies for helping to start a minor flame-skirmish.


I do become slightly rabid on the issue of copy protection.


I believe (without asking for discussion here http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif ) that it is still legal to convert unencrypted OTA content for personal use, even after the DMCA.


However, that is probably best debated in a legal forum.


Anyone really interested in the legal issues might want to read law professor Jessica Litman's excellent book on this subject Digital Copyright .



- Tom (still not a lawyer)



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[This message has been edited by trbarry (edited 06-03-2001).]
 
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