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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I have just dropped a bundle on a new Elite 510 and a RCA DTC100 with a HD dish.

I have been reading a lot about the next wave of HDTV's with these new firewire inputs.


I have not seen anything written about any stb's with firewire outputs. Some say Firewire will be the only way to get any kind of premium proggraming in the future (2 to 5 years).

If this is true, Do you think somebody will come out with a new product for HDTV's that are not equipped with this new technology of copy protection. Or will my 510 be a dinosaur?


I really hope there is a fix planned if this thing is a go.


Thanks

Jack Ipp
 

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Well, keep in mind we're talking about new technology that hasn't even been really forthcoming yet. Even newer stb have s-video jacks on them, right? You gotta figure a firewire box would also have component and/or vga output for compatibility.


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Michael Mullis

Director of US Operations

Next Level Gaming
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There was another thread on a similar topic recently.
http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/Forum20/HTML/003311.html


It's not entirely clear at this point whether or not these boxes will have component outputs or not. Different people have seen different boxes.


***The rest of this message contains crazy theories. I have no factual information at this time to back up any of these...but everything seems to make sense in my twisted brain. And no, I have not been drinking, and there are no black helicopters following me around.***


As for other STB's and the need for component outputs, if someone makes one, it would most likely convert the video to a lower quality output (otherwise what would be the point of protecting the HD content?). If they make the box, someone will hack it. So the likelihood that you will ever see one of these conversion boxes would seem to be pretty small. Like you, I would expect someone to come out with a way to prevent a million HD sets from becoming obsolete. But then I think about the content providers, and I think they will do whatever they can to stop that.


I'm not up on every HDTV coming out, but my understanding is that 1394 has been adopted by most of the major tv manufacturers as "the" standard transport to use for secure content. There are some DVI holdouts, but with Sony backing firewire, they don't stand a chance. Since there's not too much of a "legacy" for HD content right now, content providers probably wouldn't lose a whole lot of business if they limited their content to playback over "secure" connections only. So it doesn't seem too far fetched to say that will happen sometime within your 2-5 year timeframe.


And that's a nice way to drive everyone to get the latest and greatest hardware. Then, unfortunately, they have us all by the short and curlies. http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/eek.gif


I've been a "fan" of 5C up until now (actually, I was a fan until about halfway through this message). We won't get tons of content until it can be protected in some way. And I fully support the industry's right to secure their content in some way. But once we have all of the "right" hardware, the content folks will have full control over our ability to record any and all content. If they allow us to record at all, they will eventually kill their DVD & VHS sales, and put Blockbuster out of business (yeah, it will take YEARS before that will actually happen, but seems to be where we are headed). That fat revenue stream needs to come from somewhere else. Hmmm...


Even tv shows are available on DVD these days. So even though those have been free for us to copy since VCR's were introduced, that will almost surely stop once more HD content is produced. Pay per play is probably where we will end up. Oh man...that sucks! These guys can go pound sand if they think that consumers will pay to time shift their tv viewing. So there's going to have to be some acceptable compromise reached where the content guys can make a ***tload of money without completely ticking off all of their customers. With issues like that to work out, it could be a while before we see widespread availability of HD recorders.


Maybe we should all rush out and get some Sony stock on Thursday, because they seem to have a great long term plan (for their investors at least).


I gotta go read some of those earlier "stop 5C/DVI/blah blah" threads that I blew off before. So I'll stop babbling now.


Mark
 

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I just can not imagine how any provider could expect to sell an HDTV box with no analog HD outputs for at least the unprotected material. There is already too much HD Ready equipment out there and no 5C compatible equipment.


Even five years from now I don't expect to see only Firewire connections being used. It's just not going to fly that way.


- Tom


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Getting started:
HTPC FAQ , DScaler , Xcel's Links , and
What's Wrong with Copy Protection .
 

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Tom - When everyone is doing HD (which I believe they have to do within the next 5 years, right?), who is to say that there will even BE any unprotected content? That was part of my point...the content people will control my ability to record EVERYTHING.


Hot - In May, Mitsubishi said 18-24 more months for that module. When they keep pushing it back, it sounds more like a promise than a reality.


Ken - I don't believe there is mass confusion anymore. That was taken care of earlier this year when everyone adopted 5C as the content protection scheme. The FCC made their choice. The Consumer Electronics Association made their choice. TV's are coming out now with 1394 connections. I'm sure you've read more of these threads than I have...do you know who is backing DVI at this point? Do you think that these boxes that provide analog output will provide it at the same HD resolution that the digital connection will provide, or do you think it will be a lower quality feed? I think it will be the latter, which still won't be acceptable to a lot of current HD equipment owners.
 

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HDTV is going to have to become more like today's PC.


I upgrade components of my PC about every six months. But I've been using the same monitor for years. The monitor is easily the most costly of all the pieces of my PC. But it also does not become obsolete within a year.


HTDV is also going to have to separate the display function from the signal processing. That way the manufacturers will be able to sell me a new 3:2 pulldown, or line-doubling module next year. 'Cause I ain't buyin' a new $5000 TV again next year.


As for all this talk about protecting content -- forget about it. Can't be done.


Ask yourself this: Has it ever been done? Have you ever not been able to make a copy of a song or video you wanted? The so-called "content providers" don't like it, but the simple fact is that they have never been able to control the distrobution of their wares.


What will eventually happen is a system similar to cassette tape -- part of the price is a tithe to the record companies. Canada recently tried to do the same thing for blank CD-R's (don't know if they succeeded or not.)


Right now the record companies and the movie studios still hold a misplaced hope that "technology" can somehow create a format that can restrict you to one viewing per payment; and no copying. They are dead wrong.
 

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Quote:
Tom - When everyone is doing HD (which I believe they have to do within the next 5 years, right?), who is to say that there will even BE any unprotected content? That was part of my point...the content people will control my ability to record EVERYTHING.
Mark -


There is not much question that the content brokers would like to have everything copy protected. But I do not believe they will succeed in this. There are just too many people who will be angry at the necessary side effects, extra hassle, and cost.


For instance it is widely predicted there would be a mass outcry if they tried to copy protect free OTA TV.


BTW, if it was another 24 months from now, would you really choose to spend $1000 to upgrade your HDTV set? By then you might be able to replace it with a new one for < $2K. Mitsubishi certainly knows that.


- Tom



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Getting started:
HTPC FAQ , DScaler , Xcel's Links , and
What's Wrong with Copy Protection .
 

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Guy - I agree that they should make things more modular, at least on their high-end sets. I think that's one of the great benefits of a firewire connection.


But I disagree that they will NEVER be able to protect their content. It's already being done. I've downloaded a bunch of stuff from www.hob.com, but when I try to play it again a few weeks later, it goes to look for a license from hob.com again. Sure, I can re-register and get it again, but it's a PITA (I've already registered several times, and I've never been able to get an answer from them on why I have to keep re-registering...I think my license expires after 30 days). So I don't bother with content from there anymore. I'm sure if I looked, I could find a way to get around that. But it's not worth it to me.


So they can protect content from mainstream consumers. I'm sure it won't be too long before someone figures out a way to crack 5C. But that technology (along the lines of DeCSS) will never be available to mom and dad. It will only be for internet geeks http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif Like most software copy protection, it is designed to protect the casual cracking...people that want to profit from it will always find a way to break it. So then they will move on to something else. BTW, there are a lot more secure music initiatives on the way. So maybe I could make a copy of my favorite song before, but in a few years I might not be able to. There was talk of a secure standard for hard drives too, but I believe that got squashed.


Tom - I agree that there needs to be some kind of a balance between protecting content and letting us record OTA tv. It's just a little scary to realize that we pretty much have no say in the matter. And I too think the "promise" module is a joke.
 

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I just don't understand you people. Why is everybody acting like we have no say in the matter? We DO have a say, with our wallet! We don't HAVE to buy any of this! If everyone stuck together and made a concerted effort to NOT BUY ANY of this copy-protected crap, who do you think will lose? After all their copy-protected TV's, STB's, and VCR's sit collecting dust in a warehouse for months, we will see who has the final say! So we don't watch HDTV movies for a while, BIG DEAL! If nobody buys this stuff, they will eventually have to give us what we want. Everybody is so bent on instant gratification that are unable to see past next week!


And by the way, I'm sick and tired of people reminding everyone on every post they make that they bought a Mits because of the upgrade module. NOBODY CARES!!! As far as I'm concerned, anyone who chooses to give in and buy into 5C or HDCP or whatever scheme these people come up with next month, is part of the problem not the solution! http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/mad.gif


There, I feel better now.


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Vic Ruiz
STOP HDCP/DFAST/5C


[This message has been edited by vruiz (edited 07-04-2001).]
 

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I hate to burst anyone's bubble here, but you have to look no further in the future than what's about to happen here on Long Island with the Cablevision scam. Cablevision will soon be releasing Sony STBs that will output high definition content ONLY through the firewire outputs. You want to connect it to your existing HDTV? No problem! Lo rez video will be instantly available from this box through the "S" or composite video connections!! Keep in mind that this is from a company that OWNS a large retail chain that sells the soon-to-be antiquated HDTVs of today.


Now I can hear you guys saying "yeah, but that's cable". DON'T BET ON IT!! I'd be willing to bet that this will be the future in all avenues of HD! I agree 100% with Vic regarding not buying this crap, but keep in mind that NEW buyers WILL buy this stuff. What do they have to lose? Nothing. I think we're in deep do do.
 

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Quote:
That was taken care of earlier this year when everyone adopted 5C
I don't believe everyone has adopted 1394/5C. Mitsibushi and Sony are the only two [big] CE mfgrs that have announced hardware (but it's not available yet) and only 2 major studios have agreed to go along with this. The other CE mfgrs haven't committed (or in the case of JVC, have committed to DVI not 1394).


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Geof
 

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I have a 2000 Mitsubishi WS-55805 upgradable HDTV. Currently I use component inputs for HDTV. However, Mitsubishi has an upgrade Promise Module which should be available next year for about $1000.00. This module is installed in the TV and adds 5c firewire inputs as well as an integrated decoder for ATSC OTA signals and I think cable box compatibility.


Mitsubishi made their early sets upgradable so people like me who were early adopters would not see their investment evaporate as new connections came out.


The new 2002 Mitsubishi fully integrated sets will have three firewire connections.


It is possible other manufacturers might also make upgrade modules for older sets.


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Hot
 

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Here we go again...


Unfortunately, there is no definitive answer to the question "is my new HDTV gear going to work in the future?"

The reasons for this are varied, but can be summarized in this one sentence: Program owners (movie studios) are afraid of not being compensated for their product, because in digital form perfect copies can be made.


This has resulted in mass confusion among the program owners, program providers (DirecTV, Dish, cableco's) and consumer equipment manufacturers.


The response has been that the above groups have proposed different copy protection (CP) systems that will attempt to insure program material security. This is accomplished using a digital interconnect between equipment. Some alliances have been formed in this area and at this point two major systems have emerged, FireWire & DVI.



My opinion:

As equipment companies introduce new products, CP systems will be incorporated and potential compatibility issues may arise. An unacceptable scenario would be for new sources (digital STB, PVR, VCR) to have only digital interconnect with displays. In other words, no analog output, which is what all HDTV's currently use. I do not feel this will happen. A more likely situation is that at least a few equipment companies will offer sources that have both digital & analog outputs. The digital output will incorporate CP and will provide the required security, the analog output will maintain compatibility with existing equipment for the foreseeable future. If even one company offers this type of equipment, (and a few companies already appear to be in this camp) the other companies will have to follow suit. No one will buy equipment that is not compatible with existing HDTV displays, unless they have no choice. And there will be a choice.




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"Better living thru modern, expensive electronics devices"

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Here is what pioneer had to say.....



Date: 6/29/01 11:55:54 AM Eastern Daylight Time

From: [email protected]

To: [email protected]



The highest-quality digital video connection is FireWire, also known as IEEE 1394. FireWire is a high-speed, two-way connection for transmission of information only. It usually refers to computer and cam corder connections. Its precise implementation varies from company to company; don't assume one FireWire-equipped product (say, a DTV tuner) is fully compatible with another (say, a DTV set).


Digital signals will replace the analog signals that have been used since television’s infancy, and will deliver super-realistic pictures, superior surround sound, widescreen views, and a range of interactive possibilities.


This connection is not needed and if any modifications are necessary in the near future there is a data port located on the rear of the set to make adaptions.


Thank You,

Customer Service
 

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Quote:
Now I can hear you guys saying "yeah, but that's cable". DON'T BET ON IT!! I'd be willing to bet that this will be the future in all avenues of HD! I agree 100% with Vic regarding not buying this crap, but keep in mind that NEW buyers WILL buy this stuff. What do they have to lose? Nothing. I think we're in deep do do.
This I think is exactly what they (mostly the MPAA) want. They're willing to sacrifice the early adopters whom they probably believe to be of insignificant numbers. Let's face it, up to now, anyone buying HD stuff is still considered an early adopter or (legacy owner to quote the CV guy). When they're comfortable with the copy protection mechanism, more content will be available which may jumpstart mass adoption. Sure there'll be hackers just like the illegal descrambler cable box market but they don't foresee regular Joe Blow to be a risk-taker. Napster is indefinitely shutoff starting this week by the way.


More theories from me:

The firewire STBs would also have component and/or VGA, composite and S-video. I don't know how this can be done but OTA HD could still come from component/VGA but can be downconverted anytime (eg. to 480i if ABC is showing a movie unless firewire is detected). And recording can only be done through firewire equipped recorders.


The delayed release of some equipment (Zenith STB, Samsung fLCD Tantus, TWC STB) maybe due to manufacturers dilly-dallying on whether to add firewire or not before mass production.


That 169 group has been shutoff and told to keep quiet (paid off? threatened?) in attempting to do hack jobs for profit.


Hey I can theorize can't I. I like Oliver Stone films and also that Mel Gibson movie. Do these theories make sense?


Ben

 
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