AVS Forum banner
Status
Not open for further replies.
1 - 20 of 24 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
132 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
After happily using my Tosh 40" w/DTC-100 for while now, it's time to buy another 40-50" set for my study.


To my knowledge, the only sets with Firewire are the new Sonys and some Mitsus, all of which are too big for me.


My question is whether it makes sense to buy another monitor without Firewire at this stage of the game? I, as noted above, have HDTV, so it's not a question of doing totally without it. Any thoughts from fellow forum members?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
555 Posts
Quote:
Originally posted by AlanS:
After happily using my Tosh 40" w/DTC-100 for while now, it's time to buy another 40-50" set for my study.


To my knowledge, the only sets with Firewire are the new Sonys and some Mitsus, all of which are too big for me.


My question is whether it makes sense to buy another monitor without Firewire at this stage of the game? I, as noted above, have HDTV, so it's not a question of doing totally without it. Any thoughts from fellow forum members?
At this point we can only guess how this will all shake out.


I would not buy a HDTV set now without Firewire, especially since I want a recorder, preferably a TiVo like recorder for HDTV. Its almost certain that HDTV recorders will require Firewire.


Networking of AV equipment is a major improvement that will probably be built into a lot of equipment. I won't buy a computer without networking capabilities and I also don't want to buy AV equipment that can't be networked.


Without Firewire you will still be able to get over the air HDTV and some or all of the satellite HD channels. That's not bad, but I think you will regret not getting Firewire and missing the options that it will provide.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
12,972 Posts
1394 to analog converters are already available for low cost. Manufacturers also see an opportunity for consumer based products in broadband (HD) with RGBHV and Component output for existing monitors to couple the new tuners with only 1394 out. I have one here now I'm beta testing and while it has some bugs yet it works pretty slick. There is also a unit that supports VCR control in LANC, RS422 along with Time Code integration for editing systems. Where there's a demand there will be a product. Never say never! Anyone who does is a fool who doesn't understand the power of consumer demand and a capitalistic philosophy.


------------------

Don Landis

Home Theater Pics at: www.scubatech.com Last updated 3/25/01
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
402 Posts
The prescence or abscence of Firewire really sys nothing about your HDTVs readiness for new standards. The new stff is all about the encryption, and most (all?) current firewire sets available today _don't_ support the encryption standards. Firewire = Transport, 5C != Encryption (running over firewire). Try to keep them seperate...


------------------

Darren Rogers

The Eagle

The eagle soars and flies in peace, And casts its shadow wide

Across the land, across the seas, Across the far-flung skies

The foolish think the eagle weak, And easy to bring to heel

The Eagle's wings are silken, But its claws are made of steel

The eagle stands for freedom, May we never let it die

And give thanks for all our blessings, As we watch the eagle fly

- Sidney Sheldon


NEC VT540 & HTPC in my stealth theather
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
132 Posts
Discussion Starter · #5 ·
OK, got it.


So, is it likely that current sets without Firewire will be usable at full resolution when these encryption schemes are implemented, albeit with the necessity of using additional hardware?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9,196 Posts
Quote:
Originally posted by Innerloop:
When you say low-cost for a Firewire->Analog converter, what price-range are you saying? My understanding is that such a decoder would basically contain an MPEG2-decoder at a minimum, isn't that a fairly expensive component? I assume we're talking low-cost compared to a standalone a/v component, not low-cost compared to other sorts of adapters? $200-ish?


Wouldn't the MPAA try to stop something like that before it reaches the marketplace? Or would it become a sort of black-market item?


Interesting news, sorry for asking so many followup questions!
Firewire is used extensivily on lower cost computer based editing systems. The compression is not MPEG, but DV. Firewire is like RS232, it's a communication standard. The analog convertors are used to get video and audio into these computer based editing systems. Nothing wrong with that.

 

·
Registered
Joined
·
710 Posts
When you say low-cost for a Firewire->Analog converter, what price-range are you saying? My understanding is that such a decoder would basically contain an MPEG2-decoder at a minimum, isn't that a fairly expensive component? I assume we're talking low-cost compared to a standalone a/v component, not low-cost compared to other sorts of adapters? $200-ish?


Wouldn't the MPAA try to stop something like that before it reaches the marketplace? Or would it become a sort of black-market item?


Interesting news, sorry for asking so many followup questions!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
555 Posts
Quote:
Originally posted by Innerloop:
My understanding is that such a decoder would basically contain an MPEG2-decoder at a minimum, isn't that a fairly expensive component?
There is at least one MPEG-2, MPEG-4 chip that I think was quoted a price of $24 in the press release.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
555 Posts
Quote:
Originally posted by AlanS:
OK, got it.


So, is it likely that current sets without Firewire will be usable at full resolution when these encryption schemes are implemented, albeit with the necessity of using additional hardware?
The standard says encrypted HDTV can not be put "in the wild" as an analog signal. Buying a TV without Firewire (and/or DVI) will prevent you from seeing encrypted video and will prevent you from connecting to recorders.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
710 Posts
Quote:
Originally posted by Glimmie:
Firewire is used extensivily on lower cost computer based editing systems. The compression is not MPEG, but DV. Firewire is like RS232, it's a communication standard. The analog convertors are used to get video and audio into these computer based editing systems. Nothing wrong with that.

Now I apologize, but I suspect this is just plain wrong information posted here. Firewire as used for HDTV is not encoded using DV, so if I were to purchase a Firewire-to-analog converter built to be used with a DV Camera, I would be very disappointed when that converted didn't work for hi-definition TV.


 

·
Registered
Joined
·
710 Posts
Quote:
Originally posted by luvmytivo:
The prescence or abscence of Firewire really sys nothing about your HDTVs readiness for new standards. The new stff is all about the encryption, and most (all?) current firewire sets available today _don't_ support the encryption standards.


I'm fairly certain from what I've read that the new Sony XBR2 sets do support this encryption standard.

 

·
Registered
Joined
·
903 Posts
The new XBR2 sets have two firewire inputs, but do the new Pioneer Elites?


------------------

Hugh Campbell


[This message has been edited by HughScot (edited 09-29-2001).]
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,096 Posts
Hi All,

Your best bet is to buy one of the Mitsubishi Upgradable HD sets. The Promise Module that will be available next Spring, will addd two Firewire ports with HAVi and 5C, Integrated HDTV tuners, digitial audio output to any Mitsubishi these HD sets.



------------------

Bruce.in.Cary
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
957 Posts
Or just wait for component to win out over all. I am waiting for the big winner. Time will tell. If the majority of sets have no firewire connections, the interface will. Firewire is a sweet way of connecting hardware. No way I am spending good money on a upgrade module until the smoke has cleared.


------------------

RJW
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
20,517 Posts
Quote:
Originally posted by luvmytivo:
The new stff is all about the encryption, and most (all?) current firewire sets available today _don't_ support the encryption standards. Firewire = Transport, 5C != Encryption (running over firewire). Try to keep them seperate...
I don't know which sets you're talking about, but the new Sony's (KD-34XBR2, KDP-57XBR2 and the upcoming KDP-65XBR2) all implement DTCP copy-protection on their Firewire ports, as does Mitsubishi's upcoming WT-55859 and a number of other sets that they're planning to ship this Fall and Winter. Maybe there are some other televisions with unprotected Firewire, but it was those Sonys that I thought he was talking about in the topic posts. These TVs all have integrated ATSC tuners--since you have to implement an MPEG decoder to display something transmitted over 1394/DTCP, you've implemented a big chunk of what you need for a tuner, anyway, digital hardware/software-wise. Both of the announced new HD D-VHS VCRs (Mitsubishi's HS-HD2000U and JVC's HM-DH30000U have DTCP copy-protect Firewire connections--Mitsubishi's deck, which costs half what the JVC one does, can only record and playback HD over those connections (it contains no MPEG decoder at all)--you'd need one of these new sets to use it.


-- Mike Scott

 

·
Registered
Joined
·
20,517 Posts
Quote:
Originally posted by AlanS:
OK, got it.


So, is it likely that current sets without Firewire will be usable at full resolution when these encryption schemes are implemented, albeit with the necessity of using additional hardware?
Uh, no. (Well, yes, but with some specific limitations).


The entire point of encryption is to keep people from copying content that the studios consider to be "high value" (their latest and greatest stuff, that they're trying to sell and rent hard media copies of and sell pay-per-view) from analog HD connections. Copy-protected devices that have analog outputs are allowed to display copy-protect content over those outputs, but they must process the image to reduce the resolution to a maximum of 960x540 (exactly one quarter of 1920x1080 and about the resolution of progressive-scan DVD). They call this "Image Constraint". The equipment is allowed to use whatever means it wants to make that image as pretty as possible, and given that it's reducing information, equipment that's making an effort should be able to make it look far better than any DVD ever can, since even the best progressive scan processing of a DVD is interpolation of information that's not really present in the media.


There are four levels of copy-protection in DTCP (the Firewire-based copy-protection protocol): "Copy Freely", "Copy One Generation", "Copy No More" and "Copy Never". "Copy Freely" content is not encrypted and copies of it may be copied ad naseum. "Copy One Generation" says that you can make a copy of the content, but that the playback of the copy must be marked "Copy No More". "Copy No More" and "Copy Never" can not be recorded by DTCP compliant devices. To receive copy-protected content from another device, a device must authenticate itself, providing proof that it is authorized to participate in the protocol--for "Copy Never" material, that athentication step is particularly rigorous. (A compliant HD VCR, for instance, wouldn't be factory provisioned with what it takes to establish a connection to receive "Copy Never" content--not only would it not copy such, there's no way it could convince a source to send it to it).


There are a couple of concessions made for hard-disk PVRs--"Copy One Generation" material recorded on them will play back marked "Copy One Generation", to allow things captured by PVRs to be archived on some removeable media. A certain amount of "Copy Never" can be buffered temporarily (no more than 90 minutes, I think), to allow for "Pause", "Rewind" and other "trick-play" effects. Things at the beginning of the buffer must be flushed when they reach a certain age, and if you change channels the entire buffer will be flushed. Playback of the buffer would still be marked "Copy Never".


The DTCP Adopter's Agreement limits the application of copy-protection of any sort to subscription television, pay-per-view and pre-recorded media. Only pay-per-view and pre-recorded media may be marked "Copy Never". If subscription television has commercial interruptions, it can be marked "Copy One Generation", but additional flags must be inserted to prevent Image Constraints from being applied. So the only content that will be "image constrained" by compliant devices is subscription movie channels, like HBO and Showtime, pay-per-view and pre-recorded tapes and discs.


Nothing in the Adopter's Agreement would seem to prevent the creation of a 1394/DTCP to HD analog component video converter, but such a device would have to follow the Image Constraint rules for copy-protected equipment. Such a thing might be useful if the only HD output on your STB was 1394 and you had an old set--you could use it to watch all the non-copy-protected HD content in full HD on the analog outputs.


There is a second copy-protected interconnect that's showing up on a very small number of devices involving the DVI interface in common use for computer LCD monitors and a very-similar-to-DTCP protocol called HDCP. Many people think that DVI/HDCP is in competition with 1394/DTCP, but this is not at all true. DVI/HDCP is not recordable using current consumer-priced technology, since it's designed to transport the uncompressed HD raster to the display, which is a huge volume of data. Since it deals in uncompressed video, the interface in the display is simpler and cheaper and more "future proof", since it's insulated from changes in video compression technology. It's also particularly well suited to the emerging digital reflective display technologies, DLP, LCOS and JVC's D-ILA, and the older digital display tech, LCD and Plasma flat-panel. Though it has the advantage of making the display cheaper, it then requires that all the other devices that connect to the display implement MPEG decoding, or that they feed MPEG into some central device that's connected to the display by a single DVI/HDCP line. For this reason I expect DVI/HDCP to be unsuccessful in the home A/V networking arena. The only thing its introduction has served to do is increase the general FUD, since the fact that it can't (currently) be recorded made many people expect that all the content providers would insist upon STBs with that interface and that one only. Echostar is working on a DISH STB that implements 1394/DTCP, DVI/HDCP and analog HD component video connections; DIRECTV, which doesn't manufacture STBs, is encouraging its CE partners to include both protected interfaces in future products (and probably requiring one of them).


-- Mike Scott


[This message has been edited by michaeltscott (edited 10-01-2001).]
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
132 Posts
Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Wow, thanks.


Two more questions:


So, do I understand corectly that broadcasts such as "regular" sports (as opposed to PPV events), news shows, and other garden variety content will not be copy-protected and so it should be easy to get analog output from a current or future STB at full resolution, and then input that into a current model non-1394 HDTV?


If a "rogue" manufacturer elects not to participate in the copy protection scheme, would it be free to manufacture devices that circumvent it? If copying content for personal use is not a violation of the copyright laws, wouldn't copying at full resolution if you have the hardware to do it be legal too?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
475 Posts
Quote:
Your best bet is to buy one of the Mitsubishi Upgradable HD sets.
Does anyone know where one can get information about which TVs can be upgraded? I bought a Mits 55907 in May and I don't remember hearing anything from the salesman about an upgrade.


Thanks,

Roddie
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
760 Posts
Quote:
Originally posted by roddie:
Does anyone know where one can get information about which TVs can be upgraded? I bought a Mits 55907 in May and I don't remember hearing anything from the salesman about an upgrade.


Thanks,

Roddie
Here is a thread on the Promise Module:
http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/Forum11/HTML/016697.html



Note this post in that thread:

Quote:
Originally posted by ahintz:
Here is the Mitsubishi Press Release. I have posted it here rather then linking to it because their formatting is horrible. If you want to see it on their website though, the link is http://www.mitsubishi-tv.com/promise.htm

Mitsubishi Announces Industry First Promise to Upgrade Digital TVc>


IRVINE, Calif., May 4, 2000 - Mitsubishi Digital Electronics America Inc (MDEA) today announced an industry first with its digital television upgradeability promise.

In its product line brochure, the company details its promise to provide consumers with an upgrade module installed by an authorized Mitsubishi servicer at a reasonable cost. This upgrade module will enable any Mitsubishi HD-Upgradeable television (a television which can be upgraded to full HDTV performance with the addition of a separate digital receiver) to receive over-the-air digital television broadcasts, including high-definition, as well as unscrambled cable TV. In addition, this module will also have an IEEE 1394 interface, copy protection, and Home Audio Video Interoperability (HAVi) software capability for control of IEEE 1394 digital devices. Final cost to the consumer has not been determined, but is expected to be under $1,000.00.

"In 1998 we launched the industry's fullest line of HD-Upgradeable televisions. In purchasing our televisions, consumers placed their faith in us. We will stand by our customers and honor their commitment to us and our technology during this transition to digital television " noted Max Wasinger, vice-president, sales and marketing. "Products aggressively marketed as upgradeable better truly be upgradeable," he added.

Robert A. Perry, director of marketing, commented, "Our strategy of HD-Upgradeable is driven by the changes we anticipate in the marketplace. We believe consumers want to purchase the upgradeable television today and the digital receiver in the future, as broadcasting becomes more widely available. Future receivers may offer additional digital features while their prices drop. Even this year, some manufacturers are introducing integrated products that claim to have all the features consumer needs, but neglect to include such key digital features as HAVi. And many of these less-than future-ready integrated products are priced much higher than a Mitsubishi HD-Upgradeable TV, even with the addition of our upgrade module", he added.

In other news, the Company announced its DLP Technology' based projection television strategy, and its Home Audio Video Interoperability (HAVi) strategy.

Mitsubishi Digital Electronics America, Inc. (MDEA) manufactures and markets a comprehensive line of premium quality, NTSC and high-definition upgradeable projection televisions, satellite receivers, VCRs and audio products for complete home theater systems. Recognized as the world leader and innovator of big screen and digital television receiver technology, MDEA develops audio and video products that lead the industry in performance, ease-of-use and system integration.


I think this answers your question.



------------------

Mike aka Hot


Mitsubishi WS-55805

Dish 6000

DISH PVR-521

Evu 6000
 
1 - 20 of 24 Posts
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top