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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Hello All!


I'm new here so allow me to introduce myself:


My name is Art and I am involved in a few aspects of the music business; primarily as a luthier. I also work for a music festival. Our show happens early August, caters to about 10,000 guests and has 5 concurrently running stages featuring predominantly electronic music. The stage I represent is considerably more varied as we run the gambit from single DJ's right up to 11 piece bands with horns -even a a group of acoustic marimba players this year.


One of the unique things about this event is the fact that it's held on private property and because of this, our stages are permanent installations built from steel, concrete and heavy gauge timbers. This coming year my stage director is planning a major renovation. Allow me to present our current stage:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/6654222...7627562724812/


The amphitheater and stage were built in 2005 as was the main roof, which has grown and evolved over the years. The shot with the system on it is the rig we ran this year. That wall of sound contains 8 Labs and 12 shop-built Martin WSX clones. (the two SBT's were not actually in use). The stage itself is 17 feet from the front poles to the back; 12 feet of which I think will be useable for what I am about to propose. It's currently just over a meter high an will probably be raised a bit. For argument's sake let's say the useable depth for volume is 1 meter. Now the really clever out there already know where I'm going with this: HORNS IN THE FLOOR!!


We've dreamt for years of a stage with no visible bass. Since we're going to redo the floor and foundation, why not get SERIOUSLY purpose specific! I've been tasked with the initial feasibility study and cost analysis. To do this I need to work through a significant portion of the design to get an accurate handle on component costs.


As far as horn construction goes, there is one overriding issue for any design: Flooding. Every year the pit spends at least a month under water (often right up to the stage floor). For this reason, concrete and quite possibly bricks and mortar will be the materials of choice. As far as stability and performance go I can't think of a better material; flooding or not. Many of you have already seen this:

http://www.royaldevice.com/custom.ht...20TOTAL%20HORN


I want to do that on a larger scale. With MORE horns... (My dream would be to have a TRW-17 fan unit(s) in a large center cavity -but that's at least $20k)


So there's my project, in a nutshell...


I'm here for as much input as I can get! Considering how massive, unique and just down right potentially cool this project is, I want to involve as many minds as possible. If speaker-builder forums are anything like the guitar-builder forums I frequent, then I know there's an unlimited resource of passionate, opinionated and brilliant minds out there that just love to geek out on this kinda stuff...

At the moment I'm reading everything I can get my hands on and would GREATLY appreciate any recommendations. I'm also trying to scrounge up an old PC to learn hornresp and whatever other apps I can find. Again any recommendations or help in this direction would awesome (are there any mac platform simulators out there?) Beyond my own education, I'm looking for ideas! Open your minds and engage that lateral thinking. There's no limitations due to cabinet size here so go crazy! We can zig-zag in any direction, run horizontally across the stage... This is dance music so the lower the better -I'm thinking at least a mid-bass and bass design with a possibility of adding the fan unit to get right down to 5Hz. Where I REALLY need the help is with the industry 'shorthand'; my theoretical knowledge is growing rapidly so I'm looking for real world experience: Driver recommendations, crossover/protection and such -reading ad copy is one thing, but what are you actually using out there in the field? Also design ideas: Bigger horns with bigger/multiple drivers or smaller horns and more of them? These are the opinions I'm after.


I've been looking at every horn design I can find, thinking of what would be the most efficient use of space. I was initially thinking of designing a pair of front loaded horns that could be nested in pairs (think yin-yan or pisces). Most recently I've been considering a tapped horn with a single fold; much like this design, but without the bend at the mouth (the mouth would just flare past the driver).

http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/t/149697.aspx


The idea would be to orient these on their side, mouth to the front of the stage with access panels to the driver(s) for insertion/removal and at the bend for cleaning. (Any sediment deposited by the water will need to be hosed out).. One could fit a lot of these under that floor!



art...
 

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What I gathered from reading all that is he is trying to make the front of a current stage into a bunch of customized horn subs made primarily from brick.

So I guess we need to know what low frequency response he is looking for, what drivers he wants to use and how much area and dimensions he is looking for for each horn before we could even guess at it.
 

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What's your budget?
 

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I'll echo CZ and say a quad or octet of LABhorns or 12pi.


Problem solved. Next?
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Let's try this again...


The stage is being renovated. -This means we'll have a large foundation to build.


This foundation could be mostly open space. We want to make use of this open space by using cementitious materials to construct Sub horns. Like this:

http://www.royaldevice.com/custom.htm


or this:





We want to build the LF into the stage. We can make use of the full depth and width of this area.


Think of this design; but lying flat, built into the foundation (the mouth would be straight, not bent 90 degrees):

http://www.volvotreter.de/pics/TH/th_v1.jpg


Now picture a row of these along the width of the stage, exiting out the front... (they can be as deep as the stage and run all the way to the rear)



@blackoper We want to Eq down to 30Hz. As for individual horn dimensions here's what I said in the original post:

" Where I REALLY need the help is with the industry 'shorthand'; my theoretical knowledge is growing rapidly so I'm looking for real world experience: Driver recommendations, crossover/protection and such -reading ad copy is one thing, but what are you actually using out there in the field? Also design ideas: Bigger horns with bigger/multiple drivers or smaller horns and more of them? These are the opinions I'm after."


This is what I asking: If you were going to build your ultimate horn, where box size and weight wasn't an issue, where you could be free to use any driver you want and mate it to whatever horn design you want where would you start? Single and big, like the posts above? Multiple smaller horns?


@Mbentz Budget! good question and very dependent on the quality of my proposal! Minimum of 10K the first year with future additions. This could mean adding a few horns per year (going with a modular construction), building them all initially then loading components in stages That's what this feasibility study is all about.
 

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OK, I missed that you already had the LABs, but what you need to consider is that there have probably been a half dozen such projects ever executed. So almost no one has the experience of designing or building them. You will need to start from scratch and design it with Horn resp either as a single horn or stacked multiples depending upon the architect's structural rquirements and how you actually need to build it.


I would suggest starting with all the parameters you can for the ravehorn you linked, sim that and use it as a baseline to develop from there. You'll also need to define far more of the parameters of the design than you have laid out so far such as the expected Fl and the SPL expectations.


Once you have a design you like, then you get the fun job of folding it to fit into the required volume and ensuring that you can acces the drivers for maintenance.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by artavox
Budget! good question and very dependent on the quality of my proposal! Minimum of 10K the first year with future additions. This could mean adding a few horns per year (going with a modular construction), building them all initially then loading components in stages That's what this feasibility study is all about.
I would recommend pouring all the concrete at the beginning when you build the stage, and then just make the driver injection points modular...the physics of horns aren't going to change and it's not going to cost extra to pour everything at the same time.


It sounds like the drivers need to be modular anyway due to the flooding and cleaning issues.


I'd be more than willing to help you on this project, but I'm not a big fan of design by committee. The elegance in the engineering tradeoffs usually gets lost in those situations.


Btw, you would get a lot further if you posted dimensions of the stage.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
The rough dimensions, as previously mentioned are a working depth of about a meter (call it 40" for simplicity) a front to back length of 12 feet. I gapped on the width; if we call it 25', things should fit easily.


Mike, I'd love your input. I'll get some more specific info together and send you a message.


SPL expectations? I'd have to see if anybody was measuring but imagine 8 LAB's plus 10 Martin WSX's being Pushed. The village stage, run by PK Sound, had 21 of these in a space for about out 2000 bodies:

PK-CX800.pdf
 

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a horn design is possible. a big horn design is possible. a horn design that works underwater is possible, but would be tricky. did i read that right, the horn will actually be underwater for a month or so each year?
 

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My 0.02... Start by contacting those few folks who have tried this kind of thing before, to get their input. I would be tempted to redesign the stage so it is about 4 feet higher than it is now. That will give you enough height to install drainage channels around the perimeter to prevent flooding of the sub channels. The horns can then be built above ground level using cinder block (assuming you aren't planning on using poured concrete).
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 /forum/post/20890818


a horn design is possible. a big horn design is possible. a horn design that works underwater is possible, but would be tricky. did i read that right, the horn will actually be underwater for a month or so each year?

It's underwater during spring flood but is dry when in use.
 
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