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Most scripted US shows have also always been 23/24 frames per second, going back as far as the 90s or 80s or even more.
 

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Talking about Netflix content, I would agree. Basically all recent Netflix originals were released with 24fps, even shows from PAL regions (e.g. Biohackers, although it’s a German production). But on the other hand the new Netflix show “The Irregulars”, which is a British production, was released with 25fps. And from my personal experience on other streaming services, I can only say that most (if not all) European shows I’ve watched so far were using 25fps.

But that’s just my personal observation, so I don’t want to say that you are wrong about that there is some transition going on. But talking about “Humans”, I checked the frame rate after posting and it’s really 25fps. At least here on Prime Video Germany. And as the user’s judder was gone for the show with his ATV set to 50Hz, I guess the same is true for Prime Video US.
If you are streaming content in a PAL country then you will likely see a lot more 25fps content than someone streaming content in the US. Some streaming channels try to accomodate regional video/tv/broadcast standards and some don't.

FWIW my comments were on how most content is "currently" captured in camera. (The series "Humans" started shooting in 2014/2015 in the middle of the transition so it could have easily been shot in 25 or 24/23.976.)

After a show is finished in post-production (in its native/original format) it is converted for use in several markets/territories (different resolutions, frame rates, color spaces, etc.). Almost every US TV show or trailer I ever worked on had a 25fps version created for the PAL markets.
 
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FWIW my comments were on how most content is "currently" captured in camera. (The series "Humans" started shooting in 2014/2015 in the middle of the transition so it could have easily been shot in 25 or 24/23.976.)

After a show is finished in post-production (in its native/original format) it is converted for use in several markets/territories (different resolutions, frame rates, color spaces, etc.). Almost every US TV show or trailer I ever worked on had a 25fps version created for the PAL markets.
I agree with you. Of course in most cases we can only speculate about the frame rate the content was originally shot on camera. We can only check the frame rate of the released content. And as you say, there can be some conversions, so the same movie/show can have different frame rates in different countries. For example, the US show "The Flash" is streaming at 25fps here on Prime Video Germany. So obviously Amazon is using the "PAL version" here. But no doubt that it was not shot this way.

But I could imagine that same can be true for British or other European shows. That they are shot with 25fps and then get converted to 23.967fps for the release in the US or other NTSC regions. But even on Netflix the Brits seem to be more "stubborn" than other countries, as not only "The Irregulars", but also shows like "Dracula" or "The Crown" were released with 25fps.

But as I said, I don't want to claim that you are wrong in this. We will see what future releases will bring us. One transition I also see (and that caused the frame drops on ATV before tvOS 14.5) is the one from fractional 23.976fps to "true" 24fps. For example, as far as I know "The Falcon and the Winter Soldier" on Disney+ was released with integer 24fps. So that shift seems to not only happen on Netflix.
 

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Most scripted US shows have also always been 23/24 frames per second, going back as far as the 90s or 80s or even more.
Most scripted shows in North America in the 80s and 90s were shot on film at 24fps and transferred to 59.94 interlaced video using a 3-2 pulldown cadence at the field level. Transfers to 50i pal were usually done by speeding up the 24fps transfer to video by 1 frame per second. One way to tell if the show originated at 24fps was to see if the 25fps runtime is shorter than the 24fps version. I am not sure if today the 25fps versions are run through a converter such as a Teranex with frame interpolation or just sped up as they used to be.
 

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Most scripted shows in North America in the 80s and 90s were shot on film at 24fps and transferred to 59.94 interlaced video using a 3-2 pulldown cadence at the field level. Transfers to 50i pal were usually done by speeding up the 24fps transfer to video by 1 frame per second. One way to tell if the show originated at 24fps was to see if the 25fps runtime is shorter than the 24fps version. I am not sure if today the 25fps versions are run through a converter such as a Teranex with frame interpolation or just sped up as they used to be.
Usually 24 is sped up to 25, with optional audio pitch correction. But converters like the Grass Valley Alchemist can do pretty good 24 to 25 with no speed up. They generate 'new' predicted frames. This kind of conversion is normally used when the preservation of audio tempo is crucial, like music concerts etc.
 

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Usually 24 is sped up to 25, with optional audio pitch correction. But converters like the Grass Valley Alchemist can do pretty good 24 to 25 with no speed up. They generate 'new' predicted frames. This kind of conversion is normally used when the preservation of audio tempo is crucial, like music concerts etc.
The dilemma always was, and still is I presume, to preserve the temporal nature of the project or to add artificial frames. The audio pitch shift, more so than tempo, was always less of a concern and could be managed, except as you mention for concerts, particularly classical. I believe that people with perfect pitch are able to hear the difference in audio that is pitch shifted down to compensate for the 4% increase in speed.

The real pain was converting from 59.94i to 50i, which is one of the reasons 24 stuck when we moved from film to HDCAM.

One of the biggest pains was mixed frame rate footage, particularly 59.94 in 24 fps projects (tv footage in a film) until the real time converters like the Teranex came along 20 or so years ago.
 

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Installed my new Apple TV 4K today, the refresh frame rate was correct on the few titles tested. Glad to have one back now that it's usable.
 

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Ok, thanks for the input and getting me turned back around on AppleTV frame rate behavior.

I switched my AppleTV over to Match Frame Rate for Amazon Prime’s British show “Humans”, and it seemed smooth. I checked the Projector it said it was running at 1080 / 50p. I don’t know if it’s 50.000 for a double 25.000 show or the fractional equivalents. But I know I’ve tried the various settings in the past and always had stutter, so I’m going to take it as a benefit from the tvOS 14.5 addition of integer frame rates. :)
When 24/1.001 is supported, 24 MUST be supported too, unless it is a detailed timing.
 

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BTW, The Falcon and the Winter Soldier is also 24.000 The Falcon and the Winter Soldier - ef20da20 as we can see on that rip of profile 5 with IPTPQc2. So you were right!

I agree with you. Of course in most cases we can only speculate about the frame rate the content was originally shot on camera. We can only check the frame rate of the released content. And as you say, there can be some conversions, so the same movie/show can have different frame rates in different countries. For example, the US show "The Flash" is streaming at 25fps here on Prime Video Germany. So obviously Amazon is using the "PAL version" here. But no doubt that it was not shot this way.

But I could imagine that same can be true for British or other European shows. That they are shot with 25fps and then get converted to 23.967fps for the release in the US or other NTSC regions. But even on Netflix the Brits seem to be more "stubborn" than other countries, as not only "The Irregulars", but also shows like "Dracula" or "The Crown" were released with 25fps.

But as I said, I don't want to claim that you are wrong in this. We will see what future releases will bring us. One transition I also see (and that caused the frame drops on ATV before tvOS 14.5) is the one from fractional 23.976fps to "true" 24fps. For example, as far as I know "The Falcon and the Winter Soldier" on Disney+ was released with integer 24fps. So that shift seems to not only happen on Netflix.
 

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I agree with you. Of course in most cases we can only speculate about the frame rate the content was originally shot on camera. We can only check the frame rate of the released content. And as you say, there can be some conversions, so the same movie/show can have different frame rates in different countries. For example, the US show "The Flash" is streaming at 25fps here on Prime Video Germany. So obviously Amazon is using the "PAL version" here. But no doubt that it was not shot this way.

But I could imagine that same can be true for British or other European shows. That they are shot with 25fps and then get converted to 23.967fps for the release in the US or other NTSC regions. But even on Netflix the Brits seem to be more "stubborn" than other countries, as not only "The Irregulars", but also shows like "Dracula" or "The Crown" were released with 25fps.

But as I said, I don't want to claim that you are wrong in this. We will see what future releases will bring us. One transition I also see (and that caused the frame drops on ATV before tvOS 14.5) is the one from fractional 23.976fps to "true" 24fps. For example, as far as I know "The Falcon and the Winter Soldier" on Disney+ was released with integer 24fps. So that shift seems to not only happen on Netflix.
The worst for this in the UK is SkyTV's NowTV service. Because they are linked to a satellite TV broadcaster, all their titles are converted to 50Hz, including many Hollywood releases. To add insult to injury, they don't support rate match, either. It's all very annoying, but unfortunately they have exclusivity on many shows in UK.
 

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Yes, I watched the Friends reunion with the family last night and I was wondering the presentation was so poor, with frequent frame drops/repeats. My default rate is 50hz though, so I guess it’s the conversion (from 24 or 60p?) that was terrible. It was the first show I was able to watch on the new ATV, so it was disappointing. Glad it’s a Now TV quirk, as I plan to only get it sporadically. Also according to the subscription info it maxes at 1080p and Dolby digital, which adds insult to injury. Not sure why they ask to install the new 4K app. Maybe some of the info is outdated?
 

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Now TV is an absolute abomination and has always been that way. Not sure if it’s still the case but for a long time it was limited to 720p and stereo sound. It’s unfortunate that this was your first experience of the Apple TV. Thankfully it’s not representative of what the device can do.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

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Yes, I watched the Friends reunion with the family last night and I was wondering the presentation was so poor, with frequent frame drops/repeats. My default rate is 50hz though, so I guess it’s the conversion (from 24 or 60p?) that was terrible. It was the first show I was able to watch on the new ATV, so it was disappointing. Glad it’s a Now TV quirk, as I plan to only get it sporadically. Also according to the subscription info it maxes at 1080p and Dolby digital, which adds insult to injury. Not sure why they ask to install the new 4K app. Maybe some of the info is outdated?
I think on AppleTV at least the streams don't go above 720p and stereo. That might be old info, but I'm yet so see a title with surround mentioned, and you frequently spot odd scaling line artifacts.

It's particularly ridiculous as they did at one point sell a 4k NowTV box, the only 4k I think it could get was Youtube!

I imagine what you were seeing was a bad conversion to 50Hz baked into the show, probably from 60 instead of from 24. But just guessing.

You almost feel bad haranguing Apple over this kind of thing, when so many of the content providers don't seem to give a....
 

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Now TV is an absolute abomination and has always been that way. Not sure if it’s still the case but for a long time it was limited to 720p and stereo sound. It’s unfortunate that this was your first experience of the Apple TV. Thankfully it’s not representative of what the device can do.


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No worries, I k ow what the ATV can do, I got One a while ago and sent it back for a refund due to the 24.00/60.00hz bug, got a Shield Pro in the meantime, and only bought a new ATV when they fixed the problem.

I have tested a few things when I got it, it’s just that I’m busy with work at the moment so don’t have the time to watch full shows. Yesterday night was the first one…

I think on AppleTV at least the streams don't go above 720p and stereo. That might be old info, but I'm yet so see a title with surround mentioned, and you frequently spot odd scaling line artifacts.

It's particularly ridiculous as they did at one point sell a 4k NowTV box, the only 4k I think it could get was Youtube!

I imagine what you were seeing was a bad conversion to 50Hz baked into the show, probably from 60 instead of from 24. But just guessing.

You almost feel bad haranguing Apple over this kind of thing, when so many of the content providers don't seem to give a....
We’ll, that confirms that the 1080p / Dolby digital max claim is true. You have to PAY £3 extra a month for that, on top of the £9.99 for their crappy base 720p stereo. I added the free 1 week trial for that (it’s called Boost), but I won’t extend I don’t plan to watch anything on it, it’s mostly my wife who wants it. 720p stereo is fine for the iPad. :)

I don’t think I’ll renew the sub past the two months for £9.99 offer they have until Monday. I’ll ask my wife to make a list of shows she wants to watch, then binge over a month. It’s not worth £120 over a year at that quality. I’d rather purchase the Blu-ray or UHD blurays if it’s shows I care about. That’s what I’ve done until now, though it means you have to wait a bit.
 

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We’ll, that confirms that the 1080p / Dolby digital max claim is true. You have to PAY £3 extra a month for that, on top of the £9.99 for their crappy base 720p stereo. I added the free 1 week trial for that (it’s called Boost), but I won’t extend I don’t plan to watch anything on it, it’s mostly my wife who wants it. 720p stereo is fine for the iPad. :)

I don’t think I’ll renew the sub past the two months for £9.99 offer they have until Monday. I’ll ask my wife to make a list of shows she wants to watch, then binge over a month. It’s not worth £120 over a year at that quality. I’d rather purchase the Blu-ray or UHD blurays if it’s shows I care about. That’s what I’ve done until now, though it means you have to wait a bit.
I thought I'd never seen 5.1 As above, no 5.1 on Apple hardware.
And only some limited qty of sport and shows available in 1080p.
I only have the boost for the extra screens.

Unfortunately such is the state of the market and the low disc sales that many otherwise entertaining titles will never get a BD release, much less UHD. For example, Billions I think has 4.5 seasons available to stream, only 1st season ever made it to BD.

The only saving grace is you can often get the various services at a hefty discount - Sky don't like losing customers, so when you go through their web cancellation thing it would very often offer you 3-6 months at around half price.
 

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I thought I'd never seen 5.1 As above, no 5.1 on Apple hardware.
And only some limited qty of sport and shows available in 1080p.
I only have the boost for the extra screens.

Unfortunately such is the state of the market and the low disc sales that many otherwise entertaining titles will never get a BD release, much less UHD. For example, Billions I think has 4.5 seasons available to stream, only 1st season ever made it to BD.

The only saving grace is you can often get the various services at a hefty discount - Sky don't like losing customers, so when you go through their web cancellation thing it would very often offer you 3-6 months at around half price.
The ATV limitation only applies to gen 2 and 3. My understanding is that support for these is going to stop. At least that’s what it said on my gen 4 ATV when I tried to launch the bundled app, which isn’t working and asks you to download the 4K version from the App Store. Curious to see if it means the ATVgen4 supports 1080p or not with boost. I have six days left to check.

Do you have to install the developer thingy to check what Now is sending, or is there a simpler way to test?
 

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The ATV limitation only applies to gen 2 and 3. My understanding is that support for these is going to stop.
Not sure if you're referring to surround, or all Boost functionality.

The info on surround lack of availability comes straight out of the FAQ from NowTV. Could be out of date though, let me know if you find anything that plays in surround on the AppleTV4k in NowTV.
What devices support NOW Boost?
You’ll need any of these devices to enjoy all the features of Boost:
  • ...snip
  • Apple TV HD (gen 4) or 4K (Dolby Digital 5.1 surround sound not supported on Apple TV)
Do you have to install the developer thingy to check what Now is sending, or is there a simpler way to test?
Yes you would need to install the developer HUD, and even then I'm not 100% you'll get the info in the new NowTV app. As they've got their own UI overlays for the player controls, it might imply they've done all the playback themselves (I think the HUD can only display diagnostics for HLS streams through Apple's framework, but I'm not sure)
 

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The worst for this in the UK is SkyTV's NowTV service. Because they are linked to a satellite TV broadcaster, all their titles are converted to 50Hz, including many Hollywood releases. To add insult to injury, they don't support rate match, either. It's all very annoying, but unfortunately they have exclusivity on many shows in UK.
Same is true for Sky Germany. Their ATV apps get very low ratings because they are very buggy. They also don't support match frame rate. But as you mentioned, they also have exclusive rights for some shows here too, for example "Game Of Thrones". Which I couldn't stand watching on linear television with all those commercial breaks. So I still hope it will show up on another streaming service some day.
 

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Has anyone seen a problem with the ATV 4k playing 25fps at 25Hz? running 14.5

I discovered that my projector can't scale for anamorphic lens above 30Hz, oops and it has to be permanently installed, I can't slide it away! so I changed my Vertex2 EDID to only allow up to 30Hz. It works well for 24p/23.976p and 30p/29.97p but 25p material like The Crown on Netflix (or any iPlayer) is really jerky and nasty. I can see that the projector changes to 25Hz but it looks like either the AppleTV or Netflix and iPlayer don't work correctly.

I wondered if it was due to interlaced content on iPlayer but if so The Crown would be ok.

If I allow 50Hz, playback is smooth but then I'm stuck with fat people as the lens is stretching and I can't scale back.
 

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@AndreNewman - I'll give mine a go this evening.
If I recall the motion ends up quite different between 25p and 50p out to JVC projectors (or at least it did on my X7900), and I can't fully remember the detail. I know this from watching the same title coming out of the AppleTV at 50p and the Nvidia Shield 2019 at 25p, I think it was Top Boy I was watching at the time.
 
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