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The subject says it all. I'm thinking that the built-in scaling capabilities of the chip may make it worth waiting for.


So, does anyone know when we'll start seeing it used machines, or is it out there already, and I just don't know it?


Thanks.

Sam
 

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The FLI2300 I believe incorporates the FLI2000 functionality in addition to the FLI2200. That means you should have the ability to use some of those image "enhancing" functions. The 3:2 pulldown detection algorithm is probably updated and tweaked a bit as well.
 

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mroll,


But how would DVD players benefit from that ability? After all, they are forbidden from outputting anything larger than 480p.


cmont,


The same applies. Because they are doing 480p, the frame rate is preset. How would a DVD player benefit from this?


Frode,


I have not heard of any picture enhancing additions to FLI2300. Please give more details if you know about something specific.
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by oferlaor
cmont,


The same applies. Because they are doing 480p, the frame rate is preset. How would a DVD player benefit from this?
Who said you had to be restricted to 480p?



Chris
 

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First, there is nothing preventing DVD players which scale up to 720p, or 1080i.


Second, the deinterlacing on the 2200 and 2300 is the same, and it is for this purpose that it will be princably incorporated in new DVD players, although the 2300 also has scaling and other capabilities.


Third, while the various adjustments in the separate FLI22xx series chip have been incorporated in the FLI2300, it will be up to the player makers to decide which of these functions a particular player will allow the user to access, each one adding to the cost. Just as the scaling feature will not be used, other features may not.


The end result is that most players will use the FLI2300 just for deinteracing, and,in that regard, it offers no advantages over the FLI2200.
 

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I can only reply based on what is in the public domain so let me point you all to a few interesting things to read.


First, as per the product located at http://www.genesis-microchip.com/pro...02-PBR-01A.PDF you can see that the 2300 includes the image enhancement features found in the Fli2220 chip and they've done this for a fraction of what the 2200/2220 once cost so manufacturers can implement the features for less money.


Second, you can do frame rate conversion on 480P as stated in the product brief because we've done it with the chip and it works quite well.


Third, there is an integrated DAC on all but the 2310. The result should be cheaper DVD implementations for consumers longer term.


There are other things too. One place to get an idea of all that can be done on this chip is by downloading the InFocus 7200 user manual and looking at the user interface shots http://www.infocushome.com/support/p.../SP7200%20User 's%20Guide.pdf


The scaling engine on the 2300 is really quite good. It is too bad that you won't see any of the big companies offering scaled output anytime soon IMO.
 

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Robert,


I beg to disagree. From what I know, DVD player manufacturers are prohibited from supplying anything above 480p on their DVD players.


The only players you see that offer > 480p output are those that have someone else's transport (or the chinese manufacturers of no-name brands), or software based players (where 480p is meaningless).


Tom,


Obviously the 2300 is beneficial to us, as consumers. The question is whether there's any substantial improvement with regards to DVD players (other than cost going down, since the RP56, RP91, RP62 and RP82 are already cheap enough to where a modest decrease in cost would go virtually unnoticed).


Of course the 2300 should be compared to the 22xx combination. If you compare it to 2200, there would be clear benefits.


480p works at 60Hz, that's the standard. Why would a player benefit from outputting it at any other rate if it's not a standard signal.


If you were able to use the chip as a scaling engine to do a native resolution output at 72hz, that would be a clear and definite improvement over the 22XX. However, as DVD players cannot offer this (as a restriction of their license), this reduces the effectiveness of the chip in DVD players.


The only area I can see where DVD players gain something is in the area of internal zooming (which is basically scaling + cropping). However, RP91 has already done this (genesis chipset, I believe) before, so it's not a new feature.


As I see it, the majority of improvements were done to be used in scalers for projectors, plasmas (or even outboard scalers). For this purpose, the chip is a substantial improvement over 22XX.
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by oferlaor


The only area I can see where DVD players gain something is in the area of internal zooming (which is basically scaling + cropping). However, RP91 has already done this (genesis chipset, I believe) before, so it's not a new feature.
It may not be a new feature for DVD players in general, but it would be for reasonably priced player using the Sage/Faroudja deinterlacing. Is is, in fact, what many have been waiting for in a DVD player.


With respect to the scaling, the Faroudja NRS-DCS DVD player/scaler using the 2300 series chip offers scaling to a variety of native resolutions.
 

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DVD with SDI mod would put a full digital signal which in my set anything coming in at 720p would be converted to 1080i. I haven't heard that SDI mods are illegal, they just loop around the analog to output a digital signal. Why call it a Digital Video or Versatile Disc if you *have* to watch it in a analog signal? :)
 

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The DVD Consortium sets the rules for player makers who are part of the Consortium. The Consortium consists of Sony, Panasonic, Denon, Toshiba and most major makers. The principal concern is to make players which put out a signal which can't be recorded, so that they can get product from the movie studios.


Thus, 480p players were delayed until Macrovision could figure out how to incorporate its anti copying signal in a 480p component output. Non Consortium makers, e.g. the Chinese, make players which can disable Macrovision.


Similarly, because Macrovision cannot be carried by an RGB signal, players with RGB outputs are not made by consortium members.


But, Consortium members make players with RGB SCART (PAL) outputs for the European market. And US non Consortium members, such a EAD and Camelot, have put out players with RGB out using transports bought from Consortium members.


As far as I know, there is no Consortium rule prohibiting the manufacture of 720p and 1080i output DVD players because there are no consumer VCRs or Hard Drive recorders which could record those signals from a component output.


Samsung is coming out with a 720p and 1080i DVD player in the US. Since Samsung is a Consortium member, the obvious inference is that no Consortium rule prohibits such a player from being sold in the US.


On the other hand I could be wrong. Afterall, Toshiba annouced the release of its first 480p player over a year before the Macrovision issue was resolved and the player released.
 

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"Samsung is coming out with a 720p and 1080i DVD player in the US."


Not anymore. Only 720P for non-CSS DVDs. They were told they cannot ship with scaling since they are a CSS/Macrovision licensee and member of the DVD Forum.
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by Tom Strade
...First, as per the product located at http://www.genesis-microchip.com/pro...02-PBR-01A.PDF you can see that the 2300 includes the image enhancement features found in the Fli2220 chip and they've done this for a fraction of what the 2200/2220 once cost so manufacturers can implement the features for less money...


...The scaling engine on the 2300 is really quite good. It is too bad that you won't see any of the big companies offering scaled output anytime soon IMO.
Hi Tom,


Does this mean that in our future there may be a Holo3dGraphII with onboard Fli2300 and a DVI-out daughterboard for digital displays or a Mike Parker MP3D daughterboard for analog projectors? :cool:


Like I said, just dreamin'.
 

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mroll,


The DCS and NRS-DVI are fixed resolution. They are coming out with DVP3000 (I think that's the name) which is basically an NRS with 2300 and variable rates & scaling.


Because of marketing restrictions (because they want to sell their DVP3000), I doubt they'll allow any DVD player manufacturer or scaler manufacturer to directly compete with them by offering this as well.


hob,


It's in the gray area of the law. The idea being that one can modify any product they buy (they, of course, break the warranty) as long as they're not attempting to copy the product, circumvent some protection or cause damage. The correct term is "fair use".


It's similar to someone taking an off-the-shelf car and modifying it for drag racing.


The problem, of course, is that SDI modifications are in effect, circumventing macrovision, SGMS and the digital encryption on DVDs. Since there ARE SDI recorders (and DVD recorders can be fairly easily modified to record SDI instead of component 480i), someone can use the modification for recording DVDs digitally and circumventing the original DVD's CSS encryption protection!


I would expect that if the modification market was large enough, then the RIAA would probably pick a company and sue its ass off. Right now, it's such a small market that I would expect they don't even know about it (or it's tolerated quietly because so many actors and directors have SDI modified players at home).


About scaling up non-CSS disks. VERY useful stuff for home made DVDs. However, quite useless for off-the-shelf DVDs. You still need a scaler to get anything above 480p.
 

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Has noone mentioned that the 2300 has TrueLife which the 2200 does not have and that should make the 2300 better.
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by oferlaor
mroll,


The DCS and NRS-DVI are fixed resolution. They are coming out with DVP3000 (I think that's the name) which is basically an NRS with 2300 and variable rates & scaling.
Yes, you're right, I was unclear on that point. The NRS-DCS is a fixed resolution but they are available at any resolution you specify.

Quote:
Because of marketing restrictions (because they want to sell their DVP3000), I doubt they'll allow any DVD player manufacturer or scaler manufacturer to directly compete with them by offering this as well.
That's the word for awhile anyway. It's the reason the Samsung didn't come out in September as was originally planned. We'll see what happens at CES.
 
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