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While I have no immediate intentions of purchasing a D-VHS deck, I have to repeat something I read in Gary Reber's D-VHS article in the previous issue of Widescreen Review (issue 60, I believe).


During a panel discussion, someone mentions how consumers might feel that reverting to a tape-based format for the latest and greatest HD technology is a step backwards, since the disc format works so well.


Another person in the panel responds that the highest quality copy studios hold in their possession of a film is in itself a tape, a D-5 master.


Food for thought...
 

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That doesn't mean that it's the best simply because it happens to be a tape. The bits don't much care what medium they're stored on but cost and reliability are issues.


The entire broadcast and production communities are migrating toward a tapelesss aquisition and storage infrastructure because storing data (representing digital audio and video) is more reliable than tape now and is affordable. And it's likely to become even more affordable in the near future. My station, for example, has set a goal of being "tapeless" within a year.
 

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A perfect storage media does not (yet?) exist. They all have problems. Hard drives can crash, DVD's can get scratched, and tapes can wear out. I will take any media that gives me the highest resolution possible and does not require a break in the movie to flip a disk. And D-VHS is it at this time.


bb
 

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I think digital optical recording media are arguably the most stable, reliable at this time, particularly if they are formated to be encased within a cassette of some kind.


And if physical storage space is a big concern, a digital optical cylinder would be a good way to go.
 

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Quote:
The entire broadcast and production communities are migrating toward a tapelesss aquisition and storage infrastructure because storing data (representing digital audio and video) is more reliable than tape now and is affordable. And it's likely to become even more affordable in the near future. My station, for example, has set a goal of being "tapeless" within a year.
This surprises me. First of all if you really believe that then do it as you stated. ie. dump all your tape and machines. Now what are you going to do when that server gets a tiny glitch in it and needs rebooting? Wish you had tape? I have been going through this switch over to the server based airing for that past 3 years with various cable head ends around the country as we get out shows up and running. Problems you will run into are: severe sync issues with sound and video, we have been out as much as 30 seconds in some cases. What do you think that does to the embedded commercial breaks? I can tell you of one cable company that did over $30,000 of make goods for server based problems just on our show over a 60 day period. Locally, I learned yesterday that our cable head end keeps our tapes on hand after digitizing because the system crashes once per week and they need to fix the corrupted data on the drives. So what's reliable? That's right, tape! The age old system we use in broadcasting component air dubs insures that the programs are never lost. Yes, go tapeless for air but be sure you maintain a reliable backup on tape when those servers crash.


I'm with bb on this home issue. DVD is nice but until we have HDDVD I'm very happy with DVHS tape. FWIW- I stopped renting DVD's since they became popular. over 50% of the DVD's I rent lately are so scratched up they don't play well. The medium is not durabl;e enough for the rental market past 4-5 rentals. Tape lasted much longer eventhough it had problems too.
 

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Don't forget too the difference b/t perception and reality, or more accurately that perception *is* reality when it comes to the masses. If they believe tape is a step backward, then it will be treated like one in the market (i.e. a niche success at best, think LD, a failure at worst). No amount of explaining about studio use of D5 is going to change that perception. However, it's possible (though I don't think it likely) that widespread use of these machines in big box retailers around the country for HD demos may help the machines put a dent in the market.


Ultimately I think the only way it will be successful is if another major ce mfr makes them (sony would be ideal but i don't see that happening), driving prices way down for the decks, and if lots of great software is released at the right price. People still buy regular VCRs, many even pay $200 for them (not sure why!). If they could get the HD decks for $300-400 that might make it work.


TM
 

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Well, Don, our experience has been quite different.


We replaced our Betacam SP-based Odetics spot playback automation and several Betacam SP stand-alone decks for syndicated program recording and playback with Leitch servers over a year ago and hardly ever lose a spot. (We used to blow a half-dozen a day or more with the tape-based Odetics.)


We have experienced no lip sync problems and no glitches.


We are now automating satellite feeds and vivx data feeds, including syndicated programs like Martha Stewart Living, Montel, Friends and Entertainment Tonight with nary a problem of any kind. And the video looks superior to Betacam SP, of course, at 6 Mb/sec data rate (which is user selectable. You can go as low as 2 Mb/sec all the way up to HDTV data rate capacity.)


Our hands-on experience with the Leitch servers has shown us a bottom-line improvement and made migration to a tapeless facility an easy decision to make. And servers are just bit buckets...you can make an easy migration to HDTV storage just by adding more capacity.


Our next phase will incorporate newsroom automation, tying the newsroom computer system into editing and playback to air. Field aquisition will be last, probably with swapable hard-drive or DVD-RAM camcorders.
 

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Tapes wear, even digital ones, and jam, and get dirty heads and rollers,

and are not forgiving of typical consumer handling. I started in professional

video tape long before VHS, and I am ok with the media. But discs are

simply an advance over tape, plain and simple.
 

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There are alot of Server/Automation Products out there.

You get what you pay for......


Most Professional systems have a server for air and another library server that uses some type of removable media/robotics system.

If your "air" server stays loaded with 24 hours of material then you can usually avoid meltdown.

This IS the way most facilities are going
 

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For the home consumer market instant, direct access is big. My experience with rental DVD has been very good. Much better than tape was. And the surface of DVDs/CDs can also be reconditioned while tape can not.


ron
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by Don Landis




I'm with bb on this home issue. DVD is nice but until we have HDDVD I'm very happy with DVHS tape. FWIW- I stopped renting DVD's since they became popular. over 50% of the DVD's I rent lately are so scratched up they don't play well. The medium is not durabl;e enough for the rental market past 4-5 rentals. Tape lasted much longer eventhough it had problems too.
This is my biggest gripe with DVD's.


CD's have had problems with scratches for years. So when the designers of DVD shrunk the pit size by a factor of 7, why did they not think scratches were going to be a problem?


Also MD disks came before DVD and they showed the benefits to an encapsolated medium (i.e. a metal slider that only exposes the medium when it is read). But alas, DVD didn't go to an encapsolated medium and we are seeing problems with scratches.


This is one of my biggest beefs with the movie industry. Can't they pay a few cents more to give us a better medium? It will hurt the rental industry also.


-Mr. Wigggles


PS. blue-ray discs will be encapsolated by the look of things
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by anthonymoody
People still buy regular VCRs, many even pay $200 for them (not sure why!). If they could get the HD decks for $300-400 that might make it work.

TM
Not particularly realistic since a good quality SVHS VCR already costs that much or more. I really don't think a price of just a bit over $1,000 is that bad for a machine that actually plays & records high definition as well as the ONLY machine that will play the new studio releases on D-Theater. This price point would have been absolutely unthinkable a few years ago, especially when you consider what the price of HD VCRs were in broadcasting!


As far as the tape wear issue is concerned, I think this too is a bit overplayed. I'm assuming this new format has some type of error correction. I've been using the DV tape format for several years and have played & replayed some tapes on the order of 25 times with not a single dropout! The DV format has very good error correction and I'm assuming (I could be wrong) that the JVC also has some type of error correction.
 

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Hollywood stores all masters on tape or film. This is no disk or electronic optical storage medium cheap enough with sufficient capacity for this task.


SDTV transferred in the last ten years versions are typically archived on D1 tape. This is an uncompressed component digital format.


HDTV as noted at the thread top is typically archived on D5 tape. This is roughly a 5 to 1 compression.


Film effects and electroniclly created sequences are stored on data tape. There are many fomats here, both moving and stationary head. The thing to keep in mind about data tape is that the recording is verified at time of record in a write-read-verify cycle. If the machine can't verify the recording after n passes, it simply skips that block on tape an moved to the next one. Obviously this is not a realtime process. Digital video tape on the other hand records in a timed linear fashion and hopes for the best. Both data and video tape have error correction to fix dropouts. Video tape has an added feature of error concealment that "gueses" the value of the missing data.


More and more television production is moving to disk. Broadcast playout has been on disk for a few years in many markets. Electronic film post production is also disk based.


But tape is still the perferred long term storage media next to film.
 

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Dave- You seem to have launched into the server based system at your station with ease. I wish our launch at several cable systems was done the same. It wasn't directly my headache until our clients called me on the phone wanting to know why the sound was from some other program and video from ours? Stuff like that. Of course thses were in the early days but even still, the prudent thing to do is to keep the tapes as backups. Tape is still the video medium of choice. It will remain that way for quite some time to come.
 

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A lot of the reasons that tape is still used would have nothing to do with its advantages, just with its being the defacto standard. Its hard to push out a defacto standard, even if it ain't that great. I think that 24fps film is an excellent example. Its woeful, but we'll never get rid of it.


Of course the fact that there isn't an available optical format to take tape's place for some of those applications is a wee problem. But it'll be taken care off eventually, and I can't see why anyone at that point would continue using a linear format, regardless of what you might think of its fragility or lack thereof.
 

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Well, I'll never go back to tape. Linear access sucks, plain and simple. I'd rather watch a 480p DVD than a 1080i tape. Personally, I hope that HD-DVD is released using blue-laser technology with the discs enclosed in cartridges.


The fact that JVC is pushing their technology as some grand new invention makes me laugh, and the fact that people believe them when they claim that D-Theater is a good thing is just sad. Do a little research into exactly what limitations D-Theater makes on fair use, and then tell me it’s good for consumers.
 

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I don't argue about the fair use issues. If you want to get this stuff, then you can either accept their limitations or you won't get it at all, and the same will appy to HD-DVD when it appears. They aren't required by law to give us this stuff, and as long as lifeless geeks around the world work around the clock to beat any flexible copy protection scheme, we probably aren't going to get anything better than a heavily locked down system.
 

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Jeff K,


Have you seen any d-theater tapes? If you did you might feel differently. And believe me, I'm very much in the 'I can't believe HD tape beat HD DVD to market' camp. I only saw 1 demo tape via a Sharp 9000 and it was truly jawdropping - WAY better than the HD I've seen over TWC.


That said, I still can't quite convince myself to buy one. I just *know* that when HD DVD comes out (assuming it's as good as d-theater in pq) I'd want to replace any d-vhs software I bought. I can only upgrade my library so many times!


Now if it could record from HD component in, that might sway me, but alas...


TM
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by Dean Roddey
I don't argue about the fair use issues. If you want to get this stuff, then you can either accept their limitations or you won't get it at all, and the same will appy to HD-DVD when it appears. They aren't required by law to give us this stuff, and as long as lifeless geeks around the world work around the clock to beat any flexible copy protection scheme, we probably aren't going to get anything better than a heavily locked down system.
The more locked down these systems are the more fun it is for the lifeless geeks to crack them.


bb
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by MrWigggles


CD's have had problems with scratches for years. So when the designers of DVD shrunk the pit size by a factor of 7, why did they not think scratches were going to be a problem?


PS. blue-ray discs will be encapsolated by the look of things
Read the DVD FAQ. When they moved from CD to DVD, the FEC (error

correction) codes were strengthened MORE than enough to compensate

for the smaller pit sizes. DVDs are actually MORE resistant to scratches

than CDs.


As for #2, I would be very suprised if the makers did not back off the

case requirement.
 
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