Get an exclusive sneak peek into our new project. >>> Click Here
Our native mobile app has a new name: Fora Communities. Learn more.

For home theater how important is bass for the fronts?

3171 Views 44 Replies 20 Participants Last post by Soundood, Jul 31, 2009

jchong

Discussion Starter · Jul 26, 2009

For HT, there's a dedicated subwoofer channel for the deep notes. So in choosing the fronts is it necessary to get larger speakers?

I'm thinking, get a good sub and for the mains, no need to get the larger floorstander with bigger woofers but instead get the smaller floorstander or a pair of better bookshelves. In particular, I'm debating between the Focus Audio FC 8 or FC 9. The FC 9 has got 2x 7" woofers (goes down to 35Hz) instead of 2x 5.5" on the FC 8 (goes down to 40Hz).

The bigger floorstander does go a bit lower, but is that really important seeing as the sub will play the major role there? Besides, in my AVR I'll have the fronts xover at 80Hz anyway.

1 - 20 of 45 Posts

davidw

· #2 · Jul 26, 2009

Your thinking is sound. If your setup is basically for HT, IMO it is more economical to get bookshelf speakers for fronts + a good sub. If your crossover is at 80hz, a good set of bookshelfs will easily go that low.

The money you save not getting floorstanders can be put elsewhere, like into the sub, TV, or electronics.

- Dave

jchong

Discussion Starter · #3 · Jul 26, 2009

Yeah, it comes down to the savings like you said. So for HT use, I guess there are other criteria for the fronts like imaging, dynamics, etc. Bass would be a secondary concern.

Zen Traveler

· #4 · Jul 26, 2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by jchong /forum/post/16889496

Yeah, it comes down to the savings like you said. So for HT use, I guess there are other criteria for the fronts like imaging, dynamics, etc. Bass would be a secondary concern.

I agree with what davidw is saying insofar as budget is concerned. Where you put your sub will make the difference on how well your imaging is across the Front Soundstage. If your sub isn't in an ideal location, then the ability of your Front speakers to play lower will come into play.

Soundood

· #5 · Jul 28, 2009

Dynamics are more important than extension but this makes an assumption...that the sub you get is CLEAN up to about 120 where it has rolled off enough to not screw things up (assuming an 80hz crossover). That is an issue in that a large percentage of subs out there are very directional up top and do not sound very good above 80 hz. They are better off being rolled off down lower (63 or 50hz). That means bigger fronts.

The other thing you get with larger front mains is more power across the front in the crucial dynamic impact range. Three speakers that have good power response in that 60 hz range are going to deliver better dynamics than rolling it out into a single sub. A very competent high dynamic range single sub can do it (Danley CS-30 is a great example) but it is more rare.

NIN74

· #6 · Jul 29, 2009

Don't forget that the "main" speaker does 80 hz and above and need to handle it. If you want to play at high SPL, the mainspeaker must be good enough to reproduce the bass over 80 hz without starting to distort like hell.

diceburna

· #7 · Jul 29, 2009

JChong if the speakers are being played in a medium sized room then you should be cool. Even for Stereo I'll recommend a 2+1 setup. Like NIN74 was saying at high levels your speakers won't distort because your not working them to hard. Booksheslves and a good 12in sub and ur good to go. Now if your living room is a large room w/ high ceilings then bookshelves won't cut it for me.

Paul Scarpelli

· #8 · Jul 29, 2009

If you're using a subwoofer or two, extended bass in the fronts is unnecessary. A "bookshelf" (GOD, I hate that 1950's term) that has high power handling and moderate to high sensitivity will bury a lower-sensitivity set of towers, although towers (hate that term, too) are babe-getters, I hear. You do want the fronts to handle gobs of power at 60 Hz, because with a 2nd order corossover slope, they're going to get pounded down there, even with a sub and an 80 Hz crossover setting.

Fronts should almost always be set to "small" with a sub, even if the front speakers have decent extension. If you run fronts with 40 Hz bass "large" with a sub that extends to 20 Hz, your system will calibrate inaccurately, and the weakest bass in the system will be 20 Hz-40 Hz, the band where you want it to be the most gonzo. Also, it's easier to design a front speaker for higher sensitivity if it doesn't have as much extension. What I find tragically laughable are big towers with 30 Hz extension that handle 200 watts that are a puny 86 dB sensitivity. A 30 year old pair of M&K S1-B satellites would bury them at one-sixth the size.

Cliff's notes: Buy a good sub or two. Buy fronts (LCRs) with solid 60 Hz capability and appropriately high sensitivity for your amp and your room.

See less See more

craig john

· #9 · Jul 29, 2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Scarpelli /forum/post/16904784

Cliff's notes: Buy a good sub or two. Buy fronts (LCRs) with solid 60 Hz capability and appropriately high sensitivity for your amp and your room.

I might need to change my sig.

Naaaaahh!

See less See more

Soundood

· #10 · Jul 29, 2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by NIN74 /forum/post/16904637

Don't forget that the "main" speaker does 80 hz and above and need to handle it. If you want to play at high SPL, the mainspeaker must be good enough to reproduce the bass over 80 hz without starting to distort like hell.

This is a very common misunderstanding. Just because you are using an 80 hz crossover, it does NOT mean your main speaker isn't producing sound lower than that frequency. A high pass crossover rolls the sound off in level as the frequency decreases. A typical 80 hz crossover is a 12 db/octave crossover. That means at 1 octave lower (about 40 hz) the sound will be 12 db lower but there is still output. If you are hitting a 110 db peak, you still have 98 db of output at 40hz. Take it to 120 db peak, you have 108 db output at 40 hz. If you have a speaker that isn't capable of lower frequencies cleanly and you play them at high levels, you will get bad sound. Same thing with a sub...if the sub sounds bad at 120 hz then it will sound bad at high levels with an 80 hz crossover. There are three solutions to this...either use a steeper slope like 24 db/oct (uncommon on most lower and midpriced AV receivers and pre/pros), get a larger speaker, or get a speaker with far higher output capabilities by a solid 10 db above the peak you expect in your room (at the seat).

See less See more

gpmbc

· #11 · Jul 29, 2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by Soundood /forum/post/16905316

This is a very common misunderstanding. Just because you are using an 80 hz crossover, it does NOT mean your main speaker isn't producing sound lower than that frequency. A high pass crossover rolls the sound off in level as the frequency decreases. A typical 80 hz crossover is a 12 db/octave crossover. That means at 1 octave lower (about 40 hz) the sound will be 12 db lower but there is still output. If you are hitting a 110 db peak, you still have 98 db of output at 40hz. Take it to 120 db peak, you have 108 db output at 40 hz. If you have a speaker that isn't capable of lower frequencies cleanly and you play them at high levels, you will get bad sound. Same thing with a sub...if the sub sounds bad at 120 hz then it will sound bad at high levels with an 80 hz crossover. There are three solutions to this...either use a steeper slope like 24 db/oct (uncommon on most lower and midpriced AV receivers and pre/pros), get a larger speaker, or get a speaker with far higher output capabilities by a solid 10 db above the peak you expect in your room (at the seat).

Good info!

Montekay

· #12 · Jul 29, 2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by Soundood /forum/post/16905316

This is a very common misunderstanding. Just because you are using an 80 hz crossover, it does NOT mean your main speaker isn't producing sound lower than that frequency. A high pass crossover rolls the sound off in level as the frequency decreases. A typical 80 hz crossover is a 12 db/octave crossover. That means at 1 octave lower (about 40 hz) the sound will be 12 db lower but there is still output. If you are hitting a 110 db peak, you still have 98 db of output at 40hz. Take it to 120 db peak, you have 108 db output at 40 hz. If you have a speaker that isn't capable of lower frequencies cleanly and you play them at high levels, you will get bad sound. Same thing with a sub...if the sub sounds bad at 120 hz then it will sound bad at high levels with an 80 hz crossover. There are three solutions to this...either use a steeper slope like 24 db/oct (uncommon on most lower and midpriced AV receivers and pre/pros), get a larger speaker, or get a speaker with far higher output capabilities by a solid 10 db above the peak you expect in your room (at the seat).

All true but on the other hand someone looking to put together a system consisting of bookshelf mains is not expecting to get 110 dB or 120 dB out of the deal. I like that ability so I built a system capable of ludicrous output but my mains are not bookshelf speakers. Still, you have a good point it just needs to be scaled to the occasion. Even with a 2nd order crossover however it will be down 15 dB at half the corner frequency so it probably doesn't induce as much a limiting factor as you might think.

I don't think a compact system will sound good at high levels regardless of it handling the power. Loud sounds better when launched from larger surface areas. So if you just want moderate level capability then bookshelf's and a sub should be just fine but if you want that really big sound then it's just not going to happen with that approach.

mk

Dbuudo07

· #13 · Jul 29, 2009

If you want a dynamic home theater experience, you're going to need speakers with atleast one large driver or a few medium sized ones. How far are you sitting from your LCR? Do you plan on listening at reference levels(105db from your speakers during peaks)?

If you're not too keen on aesthetics, then look at some good studio monitors. They're designed to play loud and are normally self powered/active.

NIN74

· #14 · Jul 29, 2009

Soundood, You are right, mine filter are 30dB/octave so I just don't think about it like that

See less See more

crabra

· #15 · Jul 29, 2009

Check out the threads and reviews of the JTR/Seaton/Danley stuff and people might change their minds about small weak main speakers.

But of course it gets down to budget as well.

tony123

· #16 · Jul 29, 2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by crabra /forum/post/16906243

Check out the threads and reviews of the JTR/Seaton/Danley stuff and people might change their minds about small weak main speakers.

But of course it gets down to budget as well.

That's what I was thinking through this whole thread. My Klipsch THX Ultra2's fall into the small driver/bookshelf sort of cabinet, but they are nearly the most dynamic speakers I've ever heard. I love the look on faces when I let them peer behind the screen (after the demo).

See less See more

hernanu

· #17 · Jul 29, 2009

So....

Given my system, which is in the lower end of the scale, I have a Pioneer 1019, tied to Energy RC-mini's (5.1). Their freq. range is ~80->20K and I currently have them combined with a legacy sub from an old HTIB which has a range of 40-200Hz. The sub has a bulls eye on its back, soon to be replaced. Sensitivity of the mini's is 88-91db (as noted in the Energy site).

I understand the mini's are nowhere near ready to carry the low frequencies, but given that I have their crossover at 100Hz, is the right step to take for both music and HT to get a good low end sub (BIC F12?) with a 20+ to 200Hz range or kick it up to a $500+ sub that has a lower range (18-100Hz)?

Just looking to understand integration of the sub with smaller speakers. Large fronts are out esthetically due to spousal configurations, and I actually like the Energies quite a bit. And how much am I losing out with my current sub?

penngray

· #18 · Jul 29, 2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by NIN74 /forum/post/16904637

Don't forget that the "main" speaker does 80 hz and above and need to handle it. If you want to play at high SPL, the mainspeaker must be good enough to reproduce the bass over 80 hz without starting to distort like hell.

That point can not be stressed enough....its not about just getting down to 80Hz but in a great Home Theater the mains should pound you in the chest with dynamics from 80Hz to 300Hz. There is lots of content in that range that will make or break a great Home Theater.

My definition of a great home theater is probably a little more extreme then others but if someone owns one of the popular subs (PB13, HSU ULS-15 duals, etc) they should have mains to keep up. If they dont then they may want to considering upgrading the mains or adding Midd bass modules (HSU MBM)

penngray

· #19 · Jul 29, 2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by hernanu /forum/post/16906903

So....

Given my system, which is in the lower end of the scale, I have a Pioneer 1019, tied to Energy RC-mini's (5.1). Their freq. range is ~80->20K and I currently have them combined with a legacy sub from an old HTIB which has a range of 40-200Hz. The sub has a bulls eye on its back, soon to be replaced. Sensitivity of the mini's is 88-91db (as noted in the Energy site).

I understand the mini's are nowhere near ready to carry the low frequencies, but given that I have their crossover at 100Hz, is the right step to take for both music and HT to get a good low end sub (BIC F12?) with a 20+ to 200Hz range or kick it up to a $500+ sub that has a lower range (18-100Hz)?

Just looking to understand integration of the sub with smaller speakers. Large fronts are out esthetically due to spousal configurations, and I actually like the Energies quite a bit. And how much am I losing out with my current sub?

Its a tough compromise.....ignore my post.

brandonnash

· #20 · Jul 29, 2009

When, or did, dolby change their specs? Didn't they use to require full range reproduction from all channels and use of the lfe for an extra boost in overall bass dynamics? There are not many who can run like this, but I should imagine that the experience would be better like this.

1 - 20 of 45 Posts

This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.