[GeorgeAB]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Malone /forum/post/21822107


I remember when I was calibrating my first big screen rear projection about fifteen years ago, one of the two big calibration discs at the time (either Avia or Video Essentials - at the moment I can't even remember if it was eveb DIGITAL Video Essentials back then) recommended setting sharpness to as close to 0 as possible. They listed all the normal arguments about reproducing a more accurate picture and having to let your eyes adjust to the settings before cranking the levels back up. Anyway, since those discs were so prevalent back then, I've always guessed that they were responsible for the wide spread, blanket statements I've heard countless times since. Although the display technology shifting so drastically from three guns to flat panels - and my first attempt at calibrating a HD plasma with an old AVIA DVD - was the first time I realized that the adage was extinct.

It's my observation that it's rarely of much value to guess. I don't agree that any tutorial program can be blamed for anyone's misunderstanding or dogmatic misinterpretation of its contents. Can you provide a quote from either 'AVIA' or 'VE/DVE' that was in error? Humans have an innate capacity for misinterpretation, distortion, and misunderstanding of even the simplest instructions.


Lots of consumers fail to properly apply the instructions in the available audio/video tutorial optical disc programs currently available. Well known calibrators, with literally thousands of customers in their many years of experience, have testified that roughly half of hobbyists using the discs haven't applied the instructions correctly. There is also no shortage of home theater hobbyists satisfied to simply copy the settings from another TV, rather than use test signals to adjust their display properly. It's human nature to look for short cuts. Unfortunately, many people lack due regard for the discipline it takes to achieve excellence in an endeavor.


It's rare that I spend much time in other sections of the AVS forum any more. It has been my experience that this 'Display Calibration' section has the least amount of weak thinking and poor logic within it. I can't remember the last time I encountered any controversy here about whether "0" should always be the proper setting for sharpness/edge enhancement.

 

[buzzard767]

With AVSHD it is sometimes a little difficult to find that exact point where sharpening begins using the Sharpness & Overscan pattern with the medium gray background. I'm unsure if the following works on all displays as I've only recently started observing. Pull up the Black Clipping pattern in a dark environment. Turn up the Sharpness control. When haloing begins to occur it stands out like a sore thumb.


Edit: Today on one of my personal TVs I reduced Sharpness from 20 (out 100) to 6 as a result.

 

[PlasmaPZ80U]



Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzard767 /forum/post/21822436


With AVSHD it is sometimes a little difficult to find that exact point where sharpening begins using the Sharpness & Overscan pattern with the medium gray background. I'm unsure if the following works on all displays as I've only recently started observing. Pull up the Black Clipping pattern in a dark environment. Turn up the Sharpness control. When haloing begins to occur it stands out like a sore thumb.


Edit: Today on one of my personal TVs I reduced Sharpness from 20 (out 100) to 6 as a result.

The pattern is being used in this video appears to be a good one. Anyone know where it's from?


Also, how do you use the black clipping pattern to set sharpness? I'm confused.

 

[Phase700B]

Ahh. . . I see the preferences on "what test pattern" to use for sharpness has been mentioned again.


The results can vary with sharpness test patterns . Oh the conundrum! Which one to use!

I know one TV owner who set sharpness by how George Stephanopolis's hair looks on TV. When his hair starts to look like "straw" and looks "streaky". . . he stops and turns it down a notch or two.

Oh the insecurities of it all. . .

 

[Phase700B]



Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzard767 /forum/post/21822436


With AVSHD it is sometimes a little difficult to find that exact point where sharpening begins using the Sharpness & Overscan pattern with the medium gray background. I'm unsure if the following works on all displays as I've only recently started observing. Pull up the Black Clipping pattern in a dark environment. Turn up the Sharpness control. When haloing begins to occur it stands out like a sore thumb.


Edit: Today on one of my personal TVs I reduced Sharpness from 20 (out 100) to 6 as a result.

I have DVE, AVS HD709, AVIA, and now Disney WOW. I;ve actually found the later to work the best since it has both fine lines and pregressively smaller black lettering against a light gray background. Very easy to tell any enhancement. And the variance on two LCD panels I have can be as much as + or- 6 clicks when using the other discs mentioned. . . .

 

[GeorgeAB]



Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U /forum/post/21822538

The pattern is being used in this video appears to be a good one. Anyone know where it's from?


Also, how do you use the black clipping pattern to set sharpness? I'm confused.

Michael TLV posts here a lot, so you can ask him. He's the owner of the linked web site and the voice in the tutorial video. Since the SpectraCal attribution appears in the image, it may be from one of their test pattern generators.

 

[buzzard767]



Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U /forum/post/21822538



Also, how do you use the black clipping pattern to set sharpness? I'm confused.

When the sharpness halo is introduced when the control is turned up it is easier to see on the line separating the two dark grays than on the Sharpness & Overscan pattern. To reiterate what I said earlier I thought I had sharpness set correctly at a setting of 20 but the clipping pattern taught me that the real introduction of haloing was at 7 so my setting is now 6.

 

[Doug Blackburn]

Yikes, so many posts for such an EASY issue... EASY EASY EASY


OFF is ALWAYS the right setting ALWAYS, 100% of the time.


The issue is that "0" is not always OFF. Sometimes 0 defocuses the image, sometimes 0 does not disable all the sharpening.


The only way to find "OFF" is to use a sharpness evaluation pattern.


Any Sharpness setting that is NOT the "OFF" setting is adding distortion to the image. The Sharpness control for video would be like a distortion control for audio. The only right setting for an audio distortion control would be when there's no added distortion.


Sharpness adds contouring that does not exist in the original image and it does NOT make images look sharper. Some Sharpness settings may defocus the image (or something that looks a lot like defocusing). That's also not in the original image so that's a form of distortion also.


The Sharpness control is STUPID. It is SO stupid that some product engineers leave the control in the user menu so the marketing people stay happy, but the Sharpness control does NOTHING no matter where you set it. Hooray for those guys for doing the right thing.

 

[PlasmaPZ80U]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Blackburn /forum/post/21825574


Yikes, so many posts for such an EASY issue... EASY EASY EASY


OFF is ALWAYS the right setting ALWAYS, 100% of the time.


The issue is that "0" is not always OFF. Sometimes 0 defocuses the image, sometimes 0 does not disable all the sharpening.


The only way to find "OFF" is to use a sharpness evaluation pattern.


Any Sharpness setting that is NOT the "OFF" setting is adding distortion to the image. The Sharpness control for video would be like a distortion control for audio. The only right setting for an audio distortion control would be when there's no added distortion.


Sharpness adds contouring that does not exist in the original image and it does NOT make images look sharper. Some Sharpness settings may defocus the image (or something that looks a lot like defocusing). That's also not in the original image so that's a form of distortion also.


The Sharpness control is STUPID. It is SO stupid that some product engineers leave the control in the user menu so the marketing people stay happy, but the Sharpness control does NOTHING no matter where you set it. Hooray for those guys for doing the right thing.

it would be nice if they could get rid of the control altogether or make it do absolutely nothing


I believe my 2008 Panny Plasma has a sharpness control that does nothing at all on the HDMI inputs, which is nice.


my 2011 LG LCD has annoying sharpness settings (H and V) that can either result in edge enhancement or blurring the image, a poor design choice IMO

 

[D Bone]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Blackburn /forum/post/21825574


Yikes, so many posts for such an EASY issue... EASY EASY EASY


OFF is ALWAYS the right setting ALWAYS, 100% of the time.


The issue is that "0" is not always OFF. Sometimes 0 defocuses the image, sometimes 0 does not disable all the sharpening.


The only way to find "OFF" is to use a sharpness evaluation pattern.


Any Sharpness setting that is NOT the "OFF" setting is adding distortion to the image. The Sharpness control for video would be like a distortion control for audio. The only right setting for an audio distortion control would be when there's no added distortion.


Sharpness adds contouring that does not exist in the original image and it does NOT make images look sharper. Some Sharpness settings may defocus the image (or something that looks a lot like defocusing). That's also not in the original image so that's a form of distortion also.


The Sharpness control is STUPID. It is SO stupid that some product engineers leave the control in the user menu so the marketing people stay happy, but the Sharpness control does NOTHING no matter where you set it. Hooray for those guys for doing the right thing.

I am only an amateur enthusiast, and all due respect to you, but this argument doesn't make a lot of sense to me. This argument to me is the same as someone saying that "Audyssey XT should never be used, because that +7db @ 120hz and -5db @ 50hz to fix room modes, were never in the original signal, and is nothing more than distortion".


If turning the sharpness control to a setting that doesn't induce haloing or ringing, but is still "ON", looks best to the users eye at their regular viewing distance, then that seems like it is the correct setting to me.

 

[PlasmaPZ80U]



Quote:
Originally Posted by D Bone /forum/post/21825655


If turning the sharpness control to a setting that doesn't induce haloing or ringing, but is still "ON", looks best to the users eye at their regular viewing distance, then that seems like it is the correct setting to me.

If it is still "ON", then some level of haloing or ringing will always be present (even if it is very mild). So, what you suggest isn't possible. There is no benefit to setting it in the "ON" position, so why anyone would want to do that is beyond me.

 

[D Bone]



Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U /forum/post/21825753


If it is still "ON", then some level of haloing or ringing will always be present (even if it is very mild). So, what you suggest isn't possible. There is no benefit to setting it in the "ON" position, so why anyone would want to do that is beyond me.

I was referring to 0 being OFF, and any other setting (1-100) being "ON". If for example, any setting below say 10 cause a soft/blurry image and anything above say 20 causes visible ringing, than any setting between 10 and 20 would be correct.

 

[buzzard767]

From the THX certification training manual:

Methodology - Determine where the optimal setting for Sharpness on a TV. It is not always at "0".

- This is an oxymoron. High sharpness settings result in less visible detail... while optimal sharpness settings result in softer images at first, but are more detailed


Some Sharpness controls are placebos. Some manufacturers include a softening feature at lower than optimal settings. I asked which ones. Answer: Sharp, LG, and Pioneer.

 

[PlasmaPZ80U]



Quote:
Originally Posted by D Bone /forum/post/21825808


I was referring to 0 being OFF, and any other setting (1-100) being "ON". If for example, any setting below say 10 cause a soft/blurry image and anything above say 20 causes visible ringing, than any setting between 10 and 20 would be correct.

Doug mentioned:


"The issue is that "0" is not always OFF. Sometimes 0 defocuses the image, sometimes 0 does not disable all the sharpening.


The only way to find "OFF" is to use a sharpness evaluation pattern."


Based on that, the correct setting would be 20 since it is the highest setting that doesn't show any signs of ringing and it would be considered "OFF".


So, I don't see the point of your post.

 

[GeorgeAB]



Quote:
Originally Posted by D Bone /forum/post/21825655


I am only an amateur enthusiast, and all due respect to you, but this argument doesn't make a lot of sense to me. This argument to me is the same as someone saying that "Audyssey XT should never be used, because that +7db @ 120hz and -5db @ 50hz to fix room modes, were never in the original signal, and is nothing more than distortion".


If turning the sharpness control to a setting that doesn't induce haloing or ringing, but is still "ON", looks best to the users eye at their regular viewing distance, then that seems like it is the correct setting to me.

Video and audio do have some analogous equivalents, but by no means are they equivalent from every perspective. In fundamental video industry terms, calibration's goal is image fidelity not individual viewer preference:


'Display Calibration: Root Fundamentals'
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1021933


The sharpness control should not be considered as a means to compensate for poor viewing environment conditions, as audio equalization might be used to compensate for listening room problems.

 

[D Bone]



Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U /forum/post/21825865


Doug mentioned:


So, I don't see the point of your post.

The point of my post was to have a discussion.

 

[PlasmaPZ80U]



Quote:
Originally Posted by D Bone /forum/post/21825947


The point of my post was to have a discussion.

Well, in post #30 it seemed like you were disagreeing with what Doug said but afterwards when I replied to your post it became obvious what you and Doug were saying was in agreement. Which is why I didn't understand the point you were trying to make.

 

[Phase700B]



Quote:
Originally Posted by D Bone /forum/post/21825947


The point of my post was to have a discussion.

Oh. . . rest assured, it can only get better from here.

 

[HogPilot]



Quote:
Originally Posted by D Bone /forum/post/21825655


I am only an amateur enthusiast, and all due respect to you, but this argument doesn't make a lot of sense to me. This argument to me is the same as someone saying that "Audyssey XT should never be used, because that +7db @ 120hz and -5db @ 50hz to fix room modes, were never in the original signal, and is nothing more than distortion".

Your analogy doesn't hold very well since Audyssey is actually correcting for distortion that is already present - caused by the room itself. It is simply altering the signal to compensate for/eliminate the distortion at the listening position. We do the same thing with video all the time. However, in the case of the sharpness control, it does not compensate for any distortion - it only adds distortion. There is no reason for such a control to exist on our displays.

Quote:
Originally Posted by D Bone /forum/post/21825655


If turning the sharpness control to a setting that doesn't induce haloing or ringing, but is still "ON", looks best to the users eye at their regular viewing distance, then that seems like it is the correct setting to me.

The problem with this statement is that the ringing IS the "sharpness." Essentially the sharpness control looks for contrast boundaries, and then alters the edges - making the border of the darker side darker and the border of the lighter side lighter - to increase our perceived contrast across that border. The effect is two-fold: it creates ringing because that's what creates the "sharpness" effect in the first place, but the by-product can be the appearance of a sharper image since the boundaries can appear to be more defined to our visual system. By definition, one MUST be able to see ringing to see the effects of the sharpness control.

 

[Doug Blackburn]



Quote:
Originally Posted by D Bone /forum/post/21825655


If turning the sharpness control to a setting that doesn't induce haloing or ringing, but is still "ON", looks best to the users eye at their regular viewing distance, then that seems like it is the correct setting to me.

If the sharpness control is producing no halos or ringing and if it is not softening the image... the sharpening control is OFF... period. So I don't understand your lack of understanding.

It doesn't matter if the SETTING for the sharpness control is 0 or -3 or 1,280 or pi or infinity... if it is not adding artifacts to the image and it is not softening the image, it is OFF. And that's where it should be.


Adding distortion to anything is... well, distortion.


Your Audyssey example... it's logically "off" because Audyssey is just trying to fix the "distortion" the room adds to the sound (or distortion of the original sound that comes from poor placement of speakers or subwoofer). The sound of your room was not part of the original soundtrack... Audyssey is simply trying to undo the distortion your room wants to do so that what you hear is closer to what was recorded. The Sharpness control is NOTHING like that. It takes an undistorted image and distorts it. The sharpness control is not trying to undistort the image because your room sucks resolution out of the image somehow.