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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I spoke with Dave Lewis the chief engineer at FOX here in D.C. and addressed the following questions.


Q: During widescreen broadcasts the X on FOX is cut in half. Also, in 4:3 mode the logo is cut off, as well as the graphics and picture are shifted to the left. Is this a local or national problem?


A: This is a local problem. Just before you called I noticed this for the first time. I will get together with a tech and correct this ASAP.


I don't know what to expect here. I spoke to another engineer over a year ago about this exact problem and we are still dealing with this, although at that time the engineer I spoke to didn't seem to know what to do. I've read about this being a problem in other cities and we've been blaming this as a network problem and it isn't. I suggest if you are having this problem in other cities call you local affiliate and complain. Repeating, this is a local problem. Stop adjusting your overscan, it's not your TV.


Q: During the Redskins - Giants game at 1:32 until 1:40 we went from widescreen to 4:3. This happened during the Redskins - Dallas game as well. Is this a local or network feed problem? Did someone flip the switch accidentally?



A: This is a network problem that is computer generated. This has to do with programming the computer. This is not manually done.


It's been reported on this forum before about this happening during prime time broadcasting. I don't know because I don't watch prime time network television, but my guess would be the same thing applies there as well. During the football games this happens after a commercial break. Wondering, is this when it happens during prime time viewing?



Q: Are you finished with repairs, painting and so forth to the towers, so that in the future we can expect minimal outages?


A: Yes


Q: Are you operating at full power.


A: Yes


Some people find this station to be the weakest signal among major networks they get, me included, if you're having problems receiving FOX in D.C. don't expect any more power from them because it isn't coming.


Q: How soon will UPN digital be up to full power?


A: No time soon.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
The national bug comes direct from network, so locals have no control over that. Forget about losing the local one at anytime, that is a constant, for them the more the merrier. Don't forget, we have to be reminded what city and station we are watching at all times, because we are to dumb to fiqure that out.
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by ALIENS


Some people find this station to be the weakest signal among major networks they get, me included, if you're having problems receiving FOX in D.C. don't expect any more power from them because it isn't coming.


Q: How soon will UPN digital be up to full power?


A: No time soon.
I wonder... Does anyone else on this forum think there's something odd going on here with the FCC allowing stations to decide what power they broadcast at. Here's my thinking on the subject.


There used to be a time when stations were owned by different owners within a given city, but more recently, the FCC gave stations the legal ability to own more than one affil in a given market. Thus, we have FOX owning WTTG and WDCA in DC. In Baltimore, we have Sinclair owning WBFF and WNUV. Apparently, the FCC felt that letting a company own multiple stations in a market wouldn't adversely affect competition, so here's my question.


Since UPN and FOX are two separate networks, wouldn't you expect them to compete on an equal footing? But how can they when in the DC market both stations are run by FOX? And FOX is broadcasting WTTG at full power, while WDCA broadcasts with the signal strength of a walkie-talkie. The same is true of Sinclair in Baltimore which is putting out much more power on WBFF than on WNUV. In the evening when I'm deciding what to watch out here in Laurel, MD, WNUV is rarely considered because it's so weak I need to rotate my roof antenna to get them (all the other Baltimore affils come in fine with an indoor antenna). And WDCA is never an option since I don't pick them up even with the roof antenna.


It would seem to me that Viacom (parent of UPN) is getting "hosed" by FOX in DC, while AOL Time-Warner is getting "hosed" by Sinclair in Baltimore. Does anyone else think this is odd that the FCC would be allowing these type of anti-competitive practices? Or is this just an exception for DTV purposes.
 

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Aliens thanks for the input. That local bug is the one that is really messed up. I also question why the fcc is allowing upn 35 to broadcast at low power especially when they are supposed to be at 500kw. They should be fined.
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by ALIENS
I spoke with Dave Lewis the chief engineer at FOX here in D.C. and addressed the following questions.


Q: During widescreen broadcasts the X on FOX is cut in half. Also, in 4:3 mode the logo is cut off, as well as the graphics and picture are shifted to the left. Is this a local or national problem?


A: This is a local problem. Just before you called I noticed this for the first time. I will get together with a tech and correct this ASAP.
I can only say one thing about this...please don't move that logo farther out into the middle. It's bad enough having two freaking logos with one in the middle of the picture when in 16:9 mode...let's not get them both out there.


Quote:
Repeating, this is a local problem. Stop adjusting your overscan, it's not your TV.
This absolutely, positively is not a Fox or WTTG issue. This does not occur on my TV at all, ever. I have always been able to see all but about 5% of the "X" in FOX, until I adjusted my overscan, which allowed me to see all of it.


Geez, people, why all this pain and suffering to see morelogos? Do you want every channel to turn into TNN or Trio?
 

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It's definitely an overscan problem on your set (possibly exacerbated by the fact that the logo is at the extreme right side of the screen with very little border between the logo and the end of the program image).


My set's overscan is adjusted such that I see the logo entirely within the regular program image. The way my overscan is adjusted, the logo appears in a manner such that there is a bit of remaining space between the right side of the logo and the remaining program image that the logo is superimposed over.


Having said this, it would be nice if the redundant logo went away altogether. (dream-on?) There are many stations that don't bother with an additional logo. I cant help but thinking that the image processing required to add a local-station logo degrades the S/N ratio of the original signal as originally transmitted by the networks.


Hope this helps.


tj
 

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Speaking of overscan issues, I have a DTC-100 and I have noticed that on WRC-DT and WBAL-DT, whenever they go with the NBC HD feed, my projector gives me a greenish-red line down the right side of the screen (a few pixels wide). I never get that on any of the other HD feeds from CBS or ABC. What is NBC doing differently that causes this or is this an overscan issue? If it is an overscan issue, then why does it only affect NBC and only when the affils are doing HD on NBC?
 

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This issue has been brought up before and the conclusion was that it was the stations fault. Maybe we are talking about the wrong logo. I am discussing the one on the right side of the right black bar. After shrinking a 4/3 image into pixlar mode on my stb the wttg is still cut off. If it was an overscan issue then the logo would be totally visable in that mode. The only other issue could be with my stb, but I doubt it. jeff
 

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Lets see, the FOX logo issue is brought up over & over in this forum, but no other networks ever seem to have the problem.


Sounds like a FOX problem to me....
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by jeffthurmont
This issue has been brought up before and the conclusion was that it was the stations fault. Maybe we are talking about the wrong logo. I am discussing the one on the right side of the right black bar.
How about this then:


If I adjust my RCA F38310 to zero overscan, I see every pixel of all of the various Fox logos from WTTG...the one in the middle of 4:3 content, the Fox national one that used to be to the right-hand side of 16:9 content, and the WTTG logo.


I don't like to run with zero overscan, because that causes other issues. Instead, I have settled on about 3%, which cuts off a couple of pixels on the one on the far right..


Quote:
After shrinking a 4/3 image into pixlar mode on my stb the wttg is still cut off. If it was an overscan issue then the logo would be totally visable in that mode. The only other issue could be with my stb, but I doubt it.
I don't. I haven't found a single STB that does perfect scaling.


I don't know why, because it's easy to do, but they all seem to do dumb things. The dumbest (and what I think you are seeing) is that 16:9 sets often cover up part of the 4:3 image with the grey/black side bars, simulating "overscan". This is stupid, because overscan is used to deal with components that can't hold the same settings accurately at different temperatures. But, if you are already in the middle of the TV, you don't have to worry about things moving on/off the screen with temperature.
 

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The whole concept of network and station logos has gotten entirely out of hand! While there's some convenience in identifying a channel immediately when flipping through channels when visiting an unfamiliar area, for the most part it's an annoyance that subtracts from viewing enjoyment.


Why doesn't the FCC regulate this matter? In the case of logos with high luminance, there is potential for screen phosphor damage if the TV is left on all day, tuned to that station.


One solution...

Transmit logo graphics during VBI (vertical blanking interval) like closed captions, and modify new receiver designs to briefly superimpose the graphic on-screen for 10 seconds or so when the channel is changed.
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by GaryJC
One solution...

Transmit logo graphics during VBI (vertical blanking interval) like closed captions, and modify new receiver designs to briefly superimpose the graphic on-screen for 10 seconds or so when the channel is changed.
They already do, it's part of the PSIP protocol. Many analog stations transmit this information as part of the Metacast data inserted into the VBI.


The reason stations use logos is to make sure people filling out ratings books give credit to the proper station.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Breaking News! The logos are here to stay. I, like everyone else, hate them. They are annoying, intrusive on the viewing screen and are basically a self promoting feature. Watching 24 is unbelievably irritating. I'm also sick of these football players who get their rear ends kicked all the way down the field, finally make a tackle, and you'd think they just got inducted in the hall of fame. I can do without that as well, but thats the way the game is played now, and with the logos thats the way that game is played as well. Self promotion will not go away, it will only get worse.


From my end I still say WTTG has there equipment out of sync. Why is it only WTTG is the issue with centering their screen. Its not just the logo that's out of whack, their graphics are not proportionately centered. In 4:3 mode everything is shifted left and this transfers when you go to full screen. I believe if they solved 4:3 mode and centered that, it would solve full screen mode. Intercourse the logo, but if you must show it, do it CORRECTLY! I'm going to call WTTG back to address this issue again, and if anyone has an issue or question, leave it here and I will ask it at that time. It took me three days to contact them the last time, so be patient and I will get back ASAP.
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by jeffthurmont
Nabstld, When watching wttg in regular 4/3 do you find that the black bars on the right and left side are uneven. All of the other thirteen ota stations that I get are perfect but wttg is more I think on the right side and very little on the left. jeff
Yes, they are uneven. My TV shows 3-3/4" on the right and 2-1/4" on the left.


What I can't figure out is how you can have the wider black bar on the right and still not see the whole logo.


Attached is a crappy picture (it seems to be having trouble with the scanning of the set) from my camcorder (it's the only digital camera I have) showing the full Fox logo from tonight's news, where I suppose you got your picture. Don't use this picture as an example of the quality of my TV.

 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Okay lets try to narrow this down. First to nabsltd: Show me a picture without overscan by 3%. I still don't believe we should have to overscan to get a correct picture. So if I overscan for FOX, I would have to readjust the next time I change to another channel? We shouldn't have to do this. I have the Dish 6000 with the FOX X cut half off. Is this possibly a Dish stb issue (don't think so), or do people with Direct not have this problem? If everyone has this problem I believe its FOX's problem. If only certain stbs have this then we can get to the source better.
 

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I have the samsung t-150 and set it to upconvert everything to 1080i. I tried with the setting to 480p and it did make a little difference most of the x was visible but still cut off at the very end. Aliens is correct if I lower my overscan to under 4% I am going to run into problems with other stations.
 

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I have a Dish 6000 too and I don't have any problems. I DID have to turn my overscan down - from the recommended 3-4% to like 1-2%. But I could tell I needed to from all channels, including Discovery HD which has their bug close to the edge as well. Once I did this I have almost the entire FOX logo, just a few pixels cut off. My main image is pretty much centered.


Most TVs come stock with the overscan set pretty high to be safe. If you haven't adjusted it (and requires entering the service mode to do) then you probably need to.


Also the Dish 6000 (and I imagine other receivers) also allow you to slide the picture over if it is not centered right. I didn't need to do that, I was OK out of the box.


Since everyone is reporting different results I would think it is a local issue but something they may be doing may be exacerbating the problem.
 

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I am also upconverting everyting to 1080i. I dont have any problems with other stations at 1-2% overscan. It seems all the HD content is going way out to the edge. I have also adjusted to get within the plastic guides that hold my protective screen on. I can see in gaps in the corners that the edge is inside the true edge of my display but within the plastic guides.
 

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I'm curious how some of you are calibrating your overscan in HD-1080i. I know how to do it with Avia in 480i/p mode, but most sets have different service mode settings for 1080 and 480. What is your reference image source for 1080i overscan? Are you just estimating?


Gerald C
 
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