AVS Forum banner
Status
Not open for further replies.
1 - 20 of 81 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
860 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
 http://www.eetimes.com/news/latest/s...leID=168601247


Some great quotes:


"There's a cautionary note. Music is fundamentally portable. You can listen to music while you are walking or driving a car. Consuming a two-hour movie or even a 30-minute TV show on a mobile device is a challenge for the obvious reasons. People who take plane rides may love [a portable video player], but that's not a market."


"I don't think anyone wants a format war in the consumer space. That's what the unification efforts were about. There wasn't a lack of recognition that it is a good thing to achieve. But that's not enough; you needed to have an agreement, too, and clearly that was out of reach."


"It's obvious Blu-ray and HD-DVD are different products with different logos and names, so I don't think the consumer will be unaware of the story. [The] VHS-Betamax [split] wasn't bad for the consumer. If you have good labeling — and even better than labeling, the physical [Betamax and VHS] cassettes wouldn't fit in each other's systems — I think that's enough. The consumer can make a decision. Some consumers got disadvantaged because they made the wrong decision, but I think self-determination is an important factor in the market."


"In the final analysis, Blu-ray found its way to add two features that interested us greatly — an anti-commercial-piracy technology, developed primarily by Philips, and a renewability technology called Self Protecting Digital Content, developed by Cryptographic Research Inc.


In addition, we have been researching the impact of Blu-ray's cutting-edge density on replication costs. As with any future-looking technology, cost predictions can be difficult and often alarming. However, after reviewing recent developments, Fox is sanguine that costs will take the typical, rapid reduction to commercially acceptable levels.


Finally, Blu-ray's capacity, its broad support among different industry segments — both personal-computing platforms and virtually all consumer electronics manufacturers, including adoption by Sony's Playstation 3 — and a recordability solution available at product introduction made our decision to go for Blu-ray."


"If you really need to protect something well in an open platform like the PC, you need hardware security. It pushes [hacking] into the back alley because it requires [significant] cost and work [to hack]. The TPM [trusted platform module], as defined by the Trusted Computing Group, is a perfect example of that. Apple, Dell, HP and Lenovo all use TPMs in their products, and so they are all moving to hardware we can trust, at the very least, to avoid letting people rip content out of their machines."


"With Blu-ray, the work is over, and we look forward to releasing our movies on that format.


We hope Blu-ray is the second broad commercial success. HDMI with HDCP [the High-Definition Multimedia Interface with High-bandwidth Digital Copy Protection] was certainly the first. Three years ago, there wasn't a digital TV display in the market that included those features. Today, every DTV sold in the U.S. has them. That's a huge success story. "


"The use of MPEG-2 on new media is not foreclosed. There are some misunderstandings about MPEG-2 efficiencies for HD. There's one more generation of MPEG-2 to come, and we hope to see about a 10 percent improvement. The current efficiency [of MPEG-2 video data rates] is approximately 9 Mbits per second in some modes. That said, I think MPEG-4, Part 10 looks very promising. There were some unfortunate and early exaggerations of its benefits that tended to chill people out. Now we are seeing a real concrete performance-improvement factor that is significant."


SHORT ANALISYS


This guy is apparently the, or one of the, geniuses that decided to go to 480 line digital

broadcasting for Fox "because we tested, and nobody could tell the difference between that

and full HDTV". Then Fox later had to rip it all out and start over, becoming the LAST

network to catch up with reality.


Note some of the wondrous things he has to say:


* There is ZERO market for movies using an IPOD market.


* Format wars like VHS-Beta are not a bad thing, to bad if the customer picks the wrong

player.


* HDMI with HDCP is the way to go. This has fairly scary implications for the question

of if the HDTV DVD formats will allow component out analog connections.


* 9 Mbits per second is HDTV !!!! Fox just loves to live with their foot in their mouth.


No, its not funny. People like these are making the decisions about the next generation

of TV.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,423 Posts
Interesing. So ROM-Mark is a Phillips thing, huh? That's the first time I'd seen that. The comments about MPEG2 kind of back up what Amir was saying a while back (maybe you'll see some MPEG3 BD, or something along those lines); and between that and copy protection it's easy to see why they went BD (assuming MPEG2 is in their short-term plans); as they'll need all the space they can get. Note that while he mentioned MPEG4 he never even mentioned VC-1. This Fox vs. TW thing has some interesting twists to it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,067 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by samiam95124
* 9 Mbits per second is HDTV !!!! Fox just loves to live with their foot in their mouth.
Read benwaggoners posts on MPEG2 efficiencies before you leap to conclusions on this remark.


He's a PROFESSIONAL in the field. He's an HD DVD supporter. And he also agrees that MPEG2 encoders have improved greatly. To the point he believes a DVD-5 is sufficient for many DVD release with plenty of extras. If you look for the thread, he has an example of 1080p MPEG2 @12Mbps.


The state of the art encoders have not been deployed because of cheapness from the broadcasters.


19.4 should be great, because as someone pointed out, they managed I-Robot on DTheater at 21Mbps and that was NOT the current state of the art encoder, yet it was arguably one of the finest DTheater releases visually.


Gary
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,714 Posts
I-Robot, on D-Theater, was encoded using a Tandberg HW encoder.


Isn't TPM what Apple tried to use to lock their OS to specific Intel HW?


Edit: Actually, it might have been a Harmonic. I work with both so I forget which one it was.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
17,711 Posts
did not read the whhole article, but

Quote:
"It's obvious Blu-ray and HD-DVD are different products with different logos and names, so I don't think the consumer will be unaware of the story. [The] VHS-Betamax [split] wasn't bad for the consumer. If you have good labeling — and even better than labeling, the physical [Betamax and VHS] cassettes wouldn't fit in each other's systems — I think that's enough. The consumer can make a decision. Some consumers got disadvantaged because they made the wrong decision, but I think self-determination is an important factor in the market."
and
Quote:
Format wars like VHS-Beta are not a bad thing, to bad if the customer picks the wrong player.
are not the same thing.


you missed the whole first part, it is the most important, he is obviously talking about the messiness of the format war on the shelf, in other words, when you go to the store looking to buy something will you get the wrong thing by mistake ( get a HD-DVD disk for your BR or DVD player; a BR disk for your HD-DVD or DVD player; or get DVD thinking it is HD). Now I don’t fully agree, I think it is easy, if you don’t know anything, to think HD-DVD is DVD and will play in your DVD player, on the other hand I think people that get caught will gt caught only once.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
12,075 Posts
Anthony,


You are making it fit your words. I think anyone would take it in the context of what the original poster would. I think your letting your bias impair your judgement a bit. If you think for a second that the studios or any other corporate entity in this matter has your better interest at heart, you really should get yourself checked out. It is about one thing and one thing only, money. Not your entertainment.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
17,711 Posts
Kriss did you read the article?

Quote:
EET: Won't two competing formats confuse consumers and slow the market?



Setos: It's obvious Blu-ray and HD-DVD are different products with different logos and names, so I don't think the consumer will be unaware of the story. [The] VHS-Betamax [split] wasn't bad for the consumer. If you have good labeling — and even better than labeling, the physical [Betamax and VHS] cassettes wouldn't fit in each other's systems — I think that's enough. The consumer can make a decision. Some consumers got disadvantaged because they made the wrong decision, but I think self-determination is an important factor in the market.



DVD recordable is a good example of how everything can go wrong in labeling, and customers got burned. There were about two years where you had to get every electronics magazine to figure out why Bobby's disk didn't play on Jane's player.

[/b]
the question was about confusion, he answered about confusion, in his opinion if it is done right(and he thinks it will be) then confusion should not be a problem. Is it that he added some people will buy the wrong thing and they will get screwed in that sense that makes them evil? Am I the one biased or you and samiam?


like he said in the previous question

Quote:
EET: What's the outlook for the next generation of high-definition DVDs? Shouldn't there be just one format instead of competing Blu-ray and HD-DVD formats?



Setos: I don't think anyone wants a format war in the consumer space. That's what the unification efforts were about. There wasn't a lack of recognition that it is a good thing to achieve. But that's not enough; you needed to have an agreement, too, and clearly that was out of reach.
everyone, the CEs, the Studios would rather have one format, but it does not always happen and not as easy as saying we want one format.



As for biased, Samien has been cleared, he is biased twords a dual player and nothing else is good enough, if you start with that, then yes these are evil companies for not having them, the fact that thy cannot be built and be affordable who cares, the fact that it will screw consumers on th short and long run who cares, but consumers will not buy a 1000 player they don't need but a 2000$ player that will always cost MUCH more to manufacture and be MUCH more expensive. And no, DVD+/-r does not count because the differences are small between the two while the differences between BR and HD-DVD are big. At least with the dual you have the kowledge you did not buy a player that was good for two years
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
4,827 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Enigma
So ROM-Mark is a Phillips thing, huh?
It has a very interesting backstory...

http://www.extremetech.com/article2/...1846092,00.asp

While the ROM Mark scheme doesn't appear to have quite the scope that the Video Content Protection Scheme scheme that Hewlett-Packard and Philips proposed at the 2005 Consumer Electronics Show in Las Vegas, it does embed "a unique and undetectable identifier in pre-recorded BD-ROM media such as movies, music and games," according to the Blu-Ray association. Although the ROM Mark seems quite similar to the VCPS, Gordon denied that they were one and the same.


The embedded code would prevent BD discs from being played on unlicensed players, preventing unauthorized copying of Blu-Ray media. According to Fox's Setos, the ROM Mark is not a watermark, as it never leaves the disk and appears on a user's screen. Instead, the ROM Mark is a cryptographic image overlaid on the surface of the disc itself, which would need to be detected by the player before the disc would be played. Discs will not be uniquely labeled, but each movie title will receive its own ROM Mark, Setos said.


Setos said that the ROM Mark would prevent movies from being recorded with a camcorder in a theater and played on a Blu-Ray player at home.



More on VCPS: http://www.extremetech.com/article2/...1748511,00.asp
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,067 Posts
Quote:
Setos said that the ROM Mark would prevent movies from being recorded with a camcorder in a theater and played on a Blu-Ray player at home.
Well, that implies something else is going on. How can users have record/burn abilities and then play on normal player if the player then refuses to play anything that is missing the ROM Mark?


That's mixing protected and unprotected paradigms without any bridge.


Gary
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
860 Posts
Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnthonyP
did not read the whhole article, but


"It's obvious Blu-ray and HD-DVD are different products with different logos and names, so I don't think the consumer will be unaware of the story. [The] VHS-Betamax [split] wasn't bad for the consumer. If you have good labeling — and even better than labeling, the physical [Betamax and VHS] cassettes wouldn't fit in each other's systems — I think that's enough. The consumer can make a decision. Some consumers got disadvantaged because they made the wrong decision, but I think self-determination is an important factor in the market."


and


"Format wars like VHS-Beta are not a bad thing, to bad if the customer picks the wrong player. "


are not the same thing.
So let me get this straight:


The consumer can make a decision. Some consumers got disadvantaged because they made the wrong decision.


Is radically different from:


Too bad if the customer picks the wrong player.


Just sounds a bit more polite, to me.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
860 Posts
Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnthonyP
As for biased, Samien has been cleared, he is biased twords a dual player and nothing else is good enough, if you start with that, then yes these are evil companies for not having them, the fact that thy cannot be built and be affordable who cares, the fact that it will screw consumers on th short and long run who cares, but consumers will not buy a 1000 player they don't need but a 2000$ player that will always cost MUCH more to manufacture and be MUCH more expensive. And no, DVD+/-r does not count because the differences are small between the two while the differences between BR and HD-DVD are big. At least with the dual you have the kowledge you did not buy a player that was good for two years
Lets be clear. The format war is going to screw customers. The dual format player is going to

unscrew them.


Am I biased ? Yes. Against format wars (first) and towards Sony (second). I have tried to suppress

bias #2, and it must work, since many here think I am a Sony basher. Sony and I have a long

relationship, both for electronics purchases and professionally.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
17,711 Posts
Gary, don't know, but it would depend on the nature of a rom mark. If the player can differentiate between a recorded and replicated disk then it can be made to look only on replicated disk. Also from what they said a replicated disks rom will create a link between the data and disk.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
17,711 Posts
Quote:
Lets be clear. The format war is going to screw customers. The dual format player is going to

unscrew them.
prove it, that is a big statement, can you prove a dual player will be anymore cost effective then having two players? You assume there is no difference in cost between a single and dual player, the simple thing every time any manufacturer has talked about a dual player they have said that it is technically extremely hard and so will be extremely. Let’s say for the sake of argument that a dual player is more (or expensive then a BR player and a HD-DVD player or even the same, how is a dual player unscrewing people? Let’s say it is a bit less expensive, how is forcing a stalemate helping consumers in the long run, if one path leads to dual players for the length of the generation and the other would mean a single format in one year?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,303 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by samiam95124
SHORT ANALISYS


Note some of the wondrous things he has to say:


* There is ZERO market for movies using an IPOD market.


* Format wars like VHS-Beta are not a bad thing, to bad if the customer picks the wrong

player.
Just wanted to make comments on these two statements.


1. The market for "handheld television" display products may not be zero, but it is very small. Ever had one of those 2" handheld portable televisions? They make really great toys, but it doesn't take more than a few minutes for the novelty of staring at that tiny little TV screen to wear off. Where the market seems to be for video is in signficantly larger screen sizes, which is why portable DVD player screen sizes have been getting steadily larger.


2. The VHS-Beta format war actually was a good thing for consumers, because it drove innovation. Anyone remember the first Betamax? It recorded one hour on a tape, required an external timer to do time-shift recording, and had absolutely no trick play features (ie, visual scan and freeze frame). A few years later, we had visual scan, freeze frame and slow motion, built in multi-even timers, and multi-function remote controls. That level of innovation would have taken much longer without the VHS-Beta competition. And, in fact, it is interesting to note that innovation essentially stopped after the format war was over.


Unfortunately, this guy misses the mark if he thinks that Blu-Ray/HD-DVD will have the same consumer benefits. Primarily, there is a huge difference between a format war on two formats marketed primarily for time-shifting (as VHS and Beta originally were) versus formats marketed for playback of pre-recorded media (think of the quad wars fiasco earlier in the seventies). Consumers that buy into the losing format end up with something that is pretty well useless, whereas a Beta VCR would continue to work perfectly well for time-shifting as long as blank tapes are available (which, last I checked, they still were).
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
18,829 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas Desmond
1. The market for "handheld television" display products may not be zero, but it is very small. Ever had one of those 2" handheld portable televisions? They make really great toys, but it doesn't take more than a few minutes for the novelty of staring at that tiny little TV screen to wear off. Where the market seems to be for video is in signficantly larger screen sizes, which is why portable DVD player screen sizes have been getting steadily larger.
Your other points were rather reasonable Thomas but this one I am not sure about. Let me point out some alternative views:


1. Andy dismissed more or less the entire portable market -- not just ones with tiny screens. If you feel that portable DVD players have a market, what would be wrong with taking out the optical drive and putting a hard disk in it? The display can be as large as it wants to be. Think how useful it would be to take a collection of your kids movies, transcode them to a lower data rate and copy them to this box. You will have a portable babysitter for a 9 year old I am sure :).


2. Many people watch movies on laptops and even Andy concedes this. The question is whether I can take my BD disc and copy it to my laptop and take it with me. Think of the laptop as a very large portable video player that cost you nothing if you already have a use for a laptop. I believe the answer for BD is unknown at best, and NO at worst.


Both of the above scenarios are available to HD-DVD format btw.


And here is the funny part. If Fox believes that no one wants to watch movies on small screens, why did they publish movies in UMD format for Sony’s PSP? Last I checked it didn’t have a 42†LCD :). Makes you wonder how much of this stuff is real or an excuse for limiting capabilities of new formats….


Amir
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
18,829 Posts
Adding a funny anecdote to above. One of the engineers in my group became a hero on a recent airplane trip. Apparently there was a kid was screaming non-stop annoying everyone on the plane. Turns out he had his Portable Media Center (PMC) with some kid programming on it. So he pulls it out and starts the program and gives it the kid. And that was the end of the crying as the kid watched the program and proceeded to go to sleep after that. I think he got a standing ovation when he got off :).


Amir

Microsoft

P.S. We make the software for PMC. Sorry for the implied plug for above :).
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,303 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm
Your other points were rather reasonable Thomas but this one I am not sure about. Let me point out some alternative views:
Amir, I basically do agree with both of your points. I guess the distinction that I'm drawing is that the market for portable video isn't so much the equivalent of an iPod with pictures, but more like a boombox with pictures.


In other words, handheld televisions that you can watch on the go are a very small niche market, but larger portables (anywhere from the 7" or so typical for a portable DVD player up to the 14" laptop screens) that can be set down somewhere for viewing in the locaiton of one's choice is a much bigger market.


Note that this idiotic push for broadcasting video to cell phones is something that I place in the first category, and I think it is going to prove to be a bust in the marketplace. Add a hard drive to a portable DVD player, and you've got a potentially very interesting product -- especially if you also include a tuner to create an all-purpose portable video entertainment center.
 

·
Registered
LG 55" C9 OLED, Yamaha RX-A660, Monoprice 5.1.2 Speakers, WMC HTPC, TiVo Bolt, X1
Joined
·
45,617 Posts
Andy Setos is one of the smartest engineers in the TV business. He is one of the main (if not the main) reasons FOX is able to deliver 6 live HD events at once, to different TV markets across the country.


I would not take his opinion lightly, and I would also not be surprised if some of the nuance he was trying to impart during the interview may have been 'lost in translation'.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
18,829 Posts
Ken, I know Andy very well and have been in numerous meetings and discussions with him. And I am definitely not debating his intelligence. It turns out that I perfectly know what he is saying based on the discussions I have had with him on this very subject. Unfortunately, I can't disclose anything beyond what he has said here. But you can assume based on their public actions (i.e. UMD) that Fox has no issue releasing movies for portable devices. Folks should read his interview carefully and see if they can grok what is at the source of his comments. It is there, but very hard to see :). I almost gave away the answer at the end of my post....


Amir
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
921 Posts
Well, I suppose Fox would like to sell UMD movies for portables as well as blu-ray for the large screens. Of course it is nice for them to have two revenue streams from the same program.


If people could get free managed copies from their blu-ray discs then the revenue stream from UMD would eventually go away. People who own psp's may always still want to buy movies on UMD, but eventually, if managed copies are free, I assume the UMD movie business would dry up.


Now of course MS is in a much better position if free managed copies are allowed because they sell the windows mobile software which would be a popular choice for portable players.


It seems kind of obvious that there would be a market for portable video. It may not be huge and it would probably need time to grow, but eventually people will make decent amounts of money from portable players. More and more players are being released all the time. Creative has a really cool one coming out pretty soon.


This guy from Fox might be smart (smarter than me at least ;) ), but if this is a dishonest argument so that fox can make more money then he can shove his no-free-copies-blu-ray up his butt. Let me rip the movie I already paid for and let me do with it what I want! As long as I don't share the movie with a million of my closest internet friends I think I should have the right to watch the movie on any device I want. At least it shouldn't be unneccesarily crippled.


In my opinion (and I know my opinion doesn't mean jack to anyone), the format that will win should be the format that gives me the most flexibility and least restrictions.


I'm glad MS is fighting for free managed copies, because I can't see why the studios would want to give away portable versions for free (except that it's good for consumers).


Ok, thank you. I'll get off my soapbox now.
 
1 - 20 of 81 Posts
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top