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#### Mancubus

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I'm ready to begin finishing the basement this week which will include a dedicated theater. This will be my first time framing anything but I have done a lot of research and I feel I'm ready for the challenge. I have an issue that I'm not entirely clear on and I'm hoping that someone can give me an idea of how to solve this.

I understand that when building your walls, you are supposed to secure the header to the floor joists above. What I don't understand is what do you do when your floor joists are running parallel to the wall you're building? I have a problem with a few of my outer walls in that the floor joists will be running parallel to my walls, but the joists are approximately 10" out from the wall. What do I need to do to be able to secure my header at the top approx 1-2" from the poured concrete? In case you don't understand what I'm saying here is an illustration.

C= Poured Concrete

F= Framing (metal)

J= Ceiling Joists

This is the view from above

CCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCC

1"

FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF

JJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJ

JJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJ

Any help would be greatly appreciated!

TIA.

#### jdb

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What I THINK you asking here is attaching top plate to clg. joist.

Run 2x nailer's between the joist area at key points. ie, both ends, door openings, jags etc... and filling boards as needed in between, eh?

Your top plate, of the new wall, will nail into these.

If one side is concrete: you may need to run a ledger. That can secure to the concrete with a hilti gun, easily.

I like Deckmates, myself, jdb

#### Mancubus

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Yes, by header, I am referring to the top plate and you are correct, I would like to attach the top plate the ceiling joist.

One side of most of the walls where this is an issue are in fact concrete. Pls forgive my ignorance but what is a ledger?

TIA.

#### Frank Zimkas

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Install 2x4's between the joists and attach the top plate to those. Before you start banging nails (or thumbs) you might want to call your local building department and ask if you need to float all the walls in your basement. This a code requirement in my area. If your basement floor heaves you don't want the new walls in the basement to cause any structural damage to the rest of the house.

#### jdb

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Man, "Ignorance is bliss" and here you are apologizing for it?

A ledger is a perpendicular board to other boards that acts as a nailer for the other boards.

Hmmm, that is rather vague, isn't it.

Lets skip that for a second and move right along. A better definition may come to mind.

To define securement of ledger:

Lets say you have a brick wall.

And to this wall you want to secure a 2x6 board.

Lets also say you have a "Blaster" (a device you load with a charge and a nail, push it against the board, strike the free end with a hammer, HARD, and the charge "BLASTS" the nail through the board and hopefully securely to the wall on the other side.)

Put 2x6 in place against said wall.

Position blaster and strike.

Wince in pain from concussive sound.

Board is now stuck to wall.

Ok, if you secured a board along the back wall of your house, and then nailed a bunch of 2x6's, every 18" to this board, and then on the other side nailed a matching board, that was supported by posts', onto all the loose ends, cover the top with planking you would have a back deck.

The board that started all this off would be a ledger. If the ledger was to high your back wouldn't open. So you would have to tear it all down or become creative.

Better yet I go hunt for some pictures. jdb

http://www.hammerzone.com/archives/d...ng/xdpfb01.jpg

What you'll do with one of these will be discussed in part two.

#### gks

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""If the ledger was to high your back wouldn't open. So you would have to tear it all down or become creative. ""

LOL - is this a Hypothetical comment?

The problem with a Ledger in this setup is the issue that Frank correctly indentifies - you can't float the walls.

Mancubus - If I understand your "graphic", the first Joist is 10" out, and there a metal framer sitting on top of the foundation?

Any way you could post a picture of that?

Kevin

#### jdb

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gks-

Guy next door asked me for some tips before he got started. Next thing I know it's almost completed. He had told me wanted a step down of 6 " onto the deck. So I caught it right off the bat.

He had no idea of what was wrong as he stood there with a goofy proud grin from ear to ear, cuts and scrapes all over his soft hands, standing in a sea of new bought tools scattered across the yard.

He had set the ledger on top of the line instead of under it.

We pulled the door and threshold, coped the deck into the opening with a bull-nosed edge and trimmed the door to fit.

The funny part was his wifes' expression when she walked around back and saw us cutting the door down. She knew something was up but didn't say a word.

I am confused.

Frank says you do have to float the walls due to heaving/ code.

You saying one cannot.

Mancubus - what is the current headroom? Er, the height from floor to existing joist? This may turn out well for a box in a box design if you have more then 9' to play with, eh? Drastically reducing sound transmission up into the house, build to code, and avoid your home being heaved up off it's foundation.

Framing quiz.

1. A "crowned" stud can be used in place of a "king" stud. T or F

2. "R.O." refers to,

a, Room Occupancy.

c, Rough Opening

3. "Heaving" refers to:

a, Too many brews.

b, needing a strong back.

c. A general up ward motion of floors and foundations due to ground water and temperature.

Ok, heres hoping you have a 10' deep basement. Contact Ted White here in the forum if you do. jdb

#### gks

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jdb - great story. My wife would never walk away like that - she'd grind me to death!!

My "can't float the wall" point is based on my mental image of what a Ledger would look like in this installation. If he attaches it horizontally to the concrete, I think he'd have nail the framed wall directly to it (Maybe toenail through the top plate, or use a fastener). Is there hardware to allow a floating connection to a ledger - maybe some kind of slotted bracket?

I love this internet stuff - I can completely screw up some poor guys basement without ever seeing it, and with full deniability!!

Kevin.

#### jdb

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I was thinking of a ledger against the concrete wall that ran parallel to the joist so the 2x nailer's could be installed. Then the new wall be nailed to those.

However, with enough headroom one could forget about all that and build a "box in a box".

Another issue is how the existing joist plane out.

Any low spots, swoopy wup-de-doo's, high joist, or pipes hanging below the "line"?

Blast it, we need some photos here!

You are going to want before and after photos anyway, might as well break down and make that happen now. If you don't want B/A photos contact Ted White.

jdb

#### Mancubus

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Thanks for the feedback guys, I truly appreciate it.

I don't think I need to float the walls in Ontario as everything I've read so far on building codes etc. never mentioned it.

It sounds like some of the suggestions you guys are giving are a bit extreme so maybe my problem isn't as serious as I think it is. Perhaps a picture will explain everything. I'll be sure to take a few when I get home and post them tonight.

#### jdb

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Well, while we wait on the uploading to occur....I've waited about as long as I can...bed time coming up.

Quote:
 Originally posted by gks I love this internet stuff - I can completely screw up some poor guys basement without ever seeing it, and with full deniability!! Kevin.
You should have seen the job a few of us did on a guy named Mark Brown. The only trouble was, this guy could be walking along and fall into a open sewer and pop back up with his shoe's polished, a roast beef sandwich in one hand and \$20.00 in the other. For a link to that thread, contact the mastermind, Ted White.

Funny how all the dots get connected, eh? jdb

#### Mancubus

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Sorry for the delay. I went to Home Depot with a friend of mine to pick up my building materials and tools. I will post the pictures in a few minutes.

#### Mancubus

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#### Mancubus

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Ok, for some reason the link to my webspace isn't working so I'll just upload the pictures here.

*Edit*

Ok, it's been a long day. Links have been fixed with the correct CASE.

#### gks

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That's an odd place for a window - you may have to lose it.

Also, there some fancy framing to be done around all those airducts and pipes. I see a suspended ceiling in your future - what's the height of the joists (measured from the finished floor)?.

One way to attach - build the framed wall, and stand it into place. Take a few short 2x4's, and using a construction adhesive (Not wood glue), screw one end (laying flat) onto the top of the wall - with the other end reaching over to butt up against the Joist. Slap some adhesive on the cut end, and drive screws through the joist into the 2x4, sucking it in tight. Space a few more out along to span. I would actually attach the joist end first, so that you can line up your wall before driving the screws through the top plate into the "fastener" 2x4 chunks. This will hold the wall firmly in place, and give it some emergency float.

Thanks,

Kevin

#### jdb

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Good morning,

Last photo looks like the area you asked about being unsure how to secure the new wall to the parallel joist. Am I right?

That would be easy. Build the wall and brace it off to the inside joist with 2x4 custom fit pieces. Careful not to obstruct the clg. opening.

Note: the use of Deckmate screws and a screw gun, especially in tight spaces, is strongly encouraged.

However, the first photo depicts an all important water valve ( main shut off?) that closing this in might be....ah, er...unwise.

Combine this with the pipes and duct work hanging below the "line" in the middle photo and you have the makings for a drop clg. as seen in a Doctors office. (of course you could dig the floor down a few feet!)

Looks like the height of the room is about 8'.

Note: you will want to fill the joist cavities in the clg. with insulation.

Hmmm, maybe we should back up here a bit.

While framing the walls in and around the pipes and ductwork is not too difficult, a bit tricky, but not difficult, I am concerned for your clg.

Are you going to frame in around the pipes and close them off with sheetrock?

Or are you thinking about a drop panel/ grid clg.?

#### jdb

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Kevin-

Looks like you snuck in with your post while I was "composing" mine.

Also looks like we are on the same frequency - that should scare you.

#### Mancubus

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Thanks for the replies guys. After helping me with the building materials my friend took a quick look at the basement layout. He concluded a similar solution as the both of you. 2x4 off the joist with the frame connected to it. I think I'll save these walls for last as I've never done framing before so I'd like to get my feet wet on something a little more straightforward.

jdb - I was actually considering a drop ceiling in the theater and it looks like I will have to go that route in this part of the basement too (the equipment room). How would I transition from the drop ceiling to the window or would I have to cover the widow with the drop ceiling by hanging it below the window frame? That valve you see is the shut off for the backyard pipe. Theoretically, I would only need to get to it twice a year. You are correct in your assumption that the height from floor to joists is 7'11" - 8' depending on where you're standing.

*Edit: Shot number one is in the Theater Room, Shots 2 and 3 are in the Equipment Room which is where the window is. I don't have a problem blocking the window but I would rather not since I'm not sure if it has to be there due to code.

#### gks

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jdb - Not much scares me any more. A lot of water under the bridge (lot a whisky mixed in with it). I did have this strange dream the other night about exploding something large while on "Junkyard Wars" - has this happened to you?

#### jdb

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This is good news indeed.

Question? Does the equipment room even need a closed in clg?

If so the there are several ways to leave the window exposed and operational. I would encourage this.

With the headroom being tight, a drop panel clg. sounds like the way to go here. Makes several things much easier too. ie; light cans, wire runs, secret hiding places for valuables while on vacation, the list goes on...

However drop panels have issues unto themselves. You'll have some reading to do here.

Does the floor ever get damp or wet? jdb

Wine and dine your friend. If that doesn't work dig up some dirt on him and use the old "Black mail" trick. He sounds like a valuable resource. If you chain him to the middle of the floor be sure to keep the window closed.

Kevin - as my dreams are under contract with Castle rock pictures I am unable to openly comment on them. I can say that things "exploding" are a frequent occurrence that often conclude with me standing out in the middle of nowhere, naked, with a phone directory in hand. Very unnerving.

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