From Plasma to QLED - help !

Spewdom said:

Neither of those TVs you're looking at have local dimming so you won't get black levels that are close to your plasma.

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BriscoCountyJr said:

good black levels to get closest to plasma quality on an LED TV

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jwc1969 said:

The only thing remotely close to the blacks of you plasma.

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I’m calling shenanigans. That’s not even remotely true. Particularly for a THX certified calibrator to make such a claim is shameful. The cheapest LEDs on the market today will hit the black levels of most plasmas.

With the exception of Kuros and some of the Panasonics most plasmas never had better black levels than LEDs, even without local dimming. They had better black levels than early LCD displays and anything IPS, sure, but early LEDs were said to give the best of both worlds; bright AND good blacks.

Go look at Rtings Samsung reviews and check the oldest ones listed. There’s both LED and plasma models. The LEDs generally measured lower black levels. Their black levels would rise a bit with increased brightness, but plasmas couldn’t get that bright anyway. Plasmas had pixel level control, better uniformity and better motion, but to say as a rule that they had better black levels just isn’t true.

Don’t spread misinformation as a knee jerk response, making someone think they need x feature just to match their current experience. Something like a TCL 4 series will match a plasma for a fraction of any set mentioned here if all the poster wants is to upgrade to 4k. It’s silly to guide someone to spend 4x that unless we know it actually fits their needs and preferences, particularly when they specifically asked that we help that not blow their money

CrashMeister said:

So FALD is a new requirement.

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The answer to that is NO, or more accurately, it depends. If all you want to do is match your plasma for SDR content the Q70T/A is arguably the best choice, precisely because it lacks local dimming. In the 100-200 nit range it’s going to display its calibrated gamma curve with its native contrast and be extremely plasma like.

It’s HDR where local dimming matters most. As the backlight strength increases the black levels will increase. Dimming the backlight in dark areas helps improve black levels. BUT, there are inherent trade-offs. Blooming around bright objects on dark backgrounds, dimming of bright objects on dark backgrounds, and/or overly darkening resulting in black crush/loss of shadow detail are all common side effects. Which side effects and their magnitude varies based on model, manufacturers preference, and the algorithms that control it all.

The Q70T/A doesn’t do any of that, so it won’t have those side effects. It may still have some issues inherent in backlit tvs, but it won’t be at the mercy of a local dimming algorithm. The tradeoff, of course, is decreased contrast, particularly in HDR content.

For my personal tastes I think a lot of high end modern tvs make SDR cable and streaming look weird. They exaggerate darkness in a way that is reminiscent of my old plasma in its highly inaccurate custom mode, where black ‘enhancement’ stripped too much detail from anyone with dark hair or wearing a dark suit. I’d rather watch with local dimming off and have what I consider a lower, but more natural, contrast.

HDR content is coded completely differently and is meant to have much greater contrast. Bright highlights won’t pop if they’re dim or black levels are bad, and it’s tough to keep good black levels with 500-1000+ highlights. Local dimming increases the pop, but then we’re back at the side effects I mentioned previously.

No local dimming, aggressive local dimming, and mild local dimming are all different but all are valid. They each have pros and cons. Which you choose is a matter of preference. What one person loves another will hate and vice versa. I wish I could tell you there’s an easy way to identify your preference, but with little opportunity to see tvs these days outside of bright showrooms playing pristine demo content in vivid mode it’s a matter of researching, taking your best guess, then seeing what’s it’s like to live with a tv in your home for a bit.

What we really need to know to even begin to recommend anything are some details about your viewing habits and environment. What do you watch most content wise and is HDR of interest to you? Are you in a bright environment or is it light controlled?

Sorry to be so long winded, but with what we know so far I’m not sure if you need a $1,000 $3,000 or $8,000 tv and I’d like to try to help you avoid some of the upgrade woes I’ve experienced in my journey.

Tibbytastic said:

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What we really need to know to even begin to recommend anything are some details about your viewing habits and environment. What do you watch most content wise and is HDR of interest to you? Are you in a bright environment or is it light controlled?
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Viewing environment is the Den, which is open to the Kitchen. 17' wide, about 21' to the Kitchen. TV is on wall facing Kitchen. Den has fireplace with one window on each side of it, on wall adjacent to TV wall. Windows have curtains which only get used in late afternoon if sun is coming through. There are no direct reflections on the TV unless the Kitchen lights are on and even then it is not bad as those are ceiling mounted floods. Two spotlights, each is above and to one side of the TV. One floor standing lamp rear left of Den. These are always used when watching TV, the lamp is at 60%. So not bright and the lighting is controlled and comfortable. I'm not a fan of watching in the dark, I prefer having ambient lighting.

Content is mixed with soccer as the main sport. Movies are mainly sourced from apps on the 4K Apple-TV. Broadcast and cable are via a TiVo Edge - I have no expectations of quality there although it's not that bad. I also have an Oppo BDP-83 BluRay DVD player (not used very much).

One thing that does bother me (getting older sucks) is seeing details in dark scenes. Not sure if local dimming will help or hinder that.

@Tibbytastic makes valid points. Since you can return any TV ordered from Amazon or Best Buy, you really are not at any disadvantage to try and return.

You mentioned you prefer Samsung, here is one I have experience with:
I just installed a 75" Samsung TU7000 (was $899 but think they raised the price) for someone this week. It sits in a bright room and they use it in Dynamic mode during the day, and Standard mode at night and the colors and contrast for such an inexpensive TV are surprisingly good. It only gets about 300 nits on HDR, but your viewing habits do not include much, if any, HDR content, so perhaps you would be happy with a non-FALD Tv. It has good contrast, and is available in every size known to man, and some Ive never even seen before. The customer was extremely happy with it.
Here is a link to read about it: Samsung TU7000 Review (UN43TU7000FXZA, UN50TU7000FXZA, UN55TU7000FXZA, UN58TU7000FXZA, UN65TU7000FXZA, UN70TU7000FXZA, UN75TU7000FXZA, UN82TU7000FXZA)

CrashMeister said:

Viewing environment is the Den, which is open to the Kitchen. 17' wide, about 21' to the Kitchen. TV is on wall facing Kitchen. Den has fireplace with one window on each side of it, on wall adjacent to TV wall. Windows have curtains which only get used in late afternoon if sun is coming through. There are no direct reflections on the TV unless the Kitchen lights are on and even then it is not bad as those are ceiling mounted floods. Two spotlights, each is above and to one side of the TV. One floor standing lamp rear left of Den. These are always used when watching TV, the lamp is at 60%. So not bright and the lighting is controlled and comfortable. I'm not a fan of watching in the dark, I prefer having ambient lighting.

Content is mixed with soccer as the main sport. Movies are mainly sourced from apps on the 4K Apple-TV. Broadcast and cable are via a TiVo Edge - I have no expectations of quality there although it's not that bad. I also have an Oppo BDP-83 BluRay DVD player (not used very much).

One thing that does bother me (getting older sucks) is seeing details in dark scenes. Not sure if local dimming will help or hinder that.

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Ambient lighting goes a long way towards mitigating the need for the blackest blacks possible. Actually the brighter the room the more you'll find yourself squinting at a lot of HDR content since the shadow detail is so close to black and you won't see it through reflections. A lot of local dimming algorithms with make things pop out more in dark scenes due to the increased contrast, but you may lose a lot of detail all together as they crush near black detail. TVs without local dimming shouldn't lose any shadow detail provided you're in an accurate picture mode, but they will look a bit washed out side by side.

You'll really want to think about how interested you are in HDR. At it's best (well mastered discs and higher quality streams) it can make for an extremely lifelike picture. Other times it's kinda meh...muddy and flat. If you want a nice HDR experience or even think you might down the road it's worth getting something midrange or better. If you're anticipating watching mostly SDR broadcasts and streams then I agree with @Davenlr, a cheaper model would suit you just fine. The 200 nit range isn't going to jump out during the day unless you draw your curtains, but it will be visible and a bit brighter than plasma.

The Samsung TU or AU 8000 is another budget oriented model that would be fine for SDR. It's a step up from the TU7000 and is in the 300 nit range in an accurate mode, add a bit for Standard or Dynamic, so a bit brighter.

Stepping up to the Q60 or Q70 is going to get even brighter and have more vivid color. That matters for HDR content or if you really want a brighter daytime image in SDR. Personally I'd consider those sets the minimum for a valid HDR experience.

Hisense, TCL, Vizio all have good sets as well, ranging from budget to high end.

***I forgot to mention viewing angle. Coming from plasma you'll notice that many LEDs require you to be directly in front of the tv, both horizontally and vertically, to get the best picture. If it's above a fireplace or you have wide seating it changes everything. IPS panels from any manufacturer will have good viewing angles, but noticeably bad black levels. You won't notice it in bright content or during the day, but in a dark room the blacks will have a definite 'glow.' Some higher end LEDs and OLEDs in general have better viewing angles, but will cost much more and may be out of your price range unless you step down in size.

So, what's your interest level in exploring HDR content and what's your seating like?

If you're not too concerned about HDR, want wide viewing angles and always watch with ambient light in a room that is semi bright, but not glaring, during the day then a low to mid level IPS might be for you. Something like that UN90...not sure if that's an alternate name for the NANO...could be a good fit, provided you understand the weaknesses of poor black levels and (likely) less than stellar dark uniformity. The poor black levels might make dark details harder to make out in movie like conditions. I'm not sure and I can't speak to it firsthand, not having owned an IPS myself. I do have an IPS phone screen for whatever that's worth, and my girlfriend has one with an OLED screen. I'd say I see more detail on mine with ambient light and don't notice the bad black levels outside of a dark scene in a dark room. Hers has more pop, but looks less detailed.

LG is one of the big manufacturers. They make IPS LEDs and OLEDs (they manufacture all OLED panels that the other companies use as well).

I'll try to be unbiased about OLEDs.....I'm getting ready to exchange my 3rd one.

They are emissive, like plasmas, meaning the pixels themselves produce their own light.
Pros:
-They can turn pixels off entirely, meaning that black is literally true black.
-Black objects on bright backgrounds will not be lifted at all
-Bright objects on dark backgrounds can be very bright, even tiny points of light like a star
-The ability to put very bright sections right next to very dark sections lets OLEDs create incredible contrast and depth
-Wide viewing angle with no loss of contrast and just a bit of color shift

Cons:
-Potential for burn in, especially for those that watch a lot of content with bright static elements like channel logos, news or sports banners
-Difficulty with near black gamma that can result in black crush
-Not as bright as the brightest LEDs (doesn't sound like this is relevant for you)
-Near instant response times that can make motion stuttery (LEDs have this too, but OLEDs are faster so tend to struggle with it a bit more)

The last con is difficult to characterize. A lot of people have complained of poor OLED uniformity. This ranges from dark splotches and bands to colored tints in the whites on a portion of the screen. Better panels won't show the issues in the vast majority of content and owners who aren't picky may never notice it. Reports are also anecdotal so we don't truly know how many sets have what severity of issues. Also, LEDs have their own uniformity issues so you kind of pick your poison in that regard. BUT, there is an entire thread on here of lots of users discussing uniformity concerns with their OLEDs so I'd be remiss not to mention it at all. Bottom line, no consumer OLED is going to have plasma level uniformity.

CrashMeister said:

Dear lord, WHY did they stop making Plasma ?

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You're not the first to express that sentiment, myself included...

My understanding is some combination of weight/thickness which hindered size, power consumption, difficulties making the pixels small enough to go above 1080, and lack of brightness.

I really got the sense that IPS might be for you. I wouldn't recommend it often because most people want super bright super contrasty HDR, but IPS seems to check a lot of boxes for your viewing habits and preferences. Dark scenes in dark rooms are really their weakness and it sounds like that's not a big priority for you.

The nice thing about Costco is you get a 90 day return window. If you buy online their basic non wall mount setup fee isn't too high either and if you decide to return it they'll come box it up and take it away if you purchased setup. Gives you a good long time to try it out and minimal hassle if you change your mind.