Mark stated several times that he doesn't use Eminence LAB 15 stock drivers - but a highly customized version of it. Eminence keeps the LAB 15 in its portfolio so that some basic components (like moving parts) keep getting produced for Marks needs.
Funky Waves Audio - Official Thread (Prebuilt and Custom Subs)
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I'll say this in defense of the simulations.
Be it highly modified or not.
This is a very fair assesent f the potential SPL coming off of both subs using the maximum allowed power input.
The surround is the same as the stock LAB15. The maximum possible excursion is limited by the combination of the surround and the spider.
I simmed using both of the companies internal cabinet volumes.
This is the second dominant factor. The volume of air behind the driver boosts the low to a certain degree as well.
Again I created the most even playing field and simulated the enclosures using a well respected program. No boost is applied as it is not applicable in terms of maximum output. The simulations are done at the maximum possible output in the first place.
The only real difference that I can point out is the long term thermal capability of the drivers are very different.
The Seaton driver is a 600 watt unit that can handle peaks of 1200 watts according to the application notes. Yes the aggregate is 2400 watts.
The Funk driver is a 1200 watt driver that can take peaks of 2400 watts.
I do a fair bit of design work for pro sound as well. And anecdotal evidence in terms of the LAB15 when pushed hard is not as good as the driver we chose for Nathans sub.
Numbers do not tell you everything.
Graphs are only useful when they are presented in a fair setting.
And you gotta sweat the details at this level of product. Both subs are pretty good. And they both have their niches.
If you guys really want a shoot out send me some LAB15's. I'll measure them with no problem.
MArk
Mark
Be it highly modified or not.
This is a very fair assesent f the potential SPL coming off of both subs using the maximum allowed power input.
The surround is the same as the stock LAB15. The maximum possible excursion is limited by the combination of the surround and the spider.
I simmed using both of the companies internal cabinet volumes.
This is the second dominant factor. The volume of air behind the driver boosts the low to a certain degree as well.
Again I created the most even playing field and simulated the enclosures using a well respected program. No boost is applied as it is not applicable in terms of maximum output. The simulations are done at the maximum possible output in the first place.
The only real difference that I can point out is the long term thermal capability of the drivers are very different.
The Seaton driver is a 600 watt unit that can handle peaks of 1200 watts according to the application notes. Yes the aggregate is 2400 watts.
The Funk driver is a 1200 watt driver that can take peaks of 2400 watts.
I do a fair bit of design work for pro sound as well. And anecdotal evidence in terms of the LAB15 when pushed hard is not as good as the driver we chose for Nathans sub.
Numbers do not tell you everything.
Graphs are only useful when they are presented in a fair setting.
And you gotta sweat the details at this level of product. Both subs are pretty good. And they both have their niches.
If you guys really want a shoot out send me some LAB15's. I'll measure them with no problem.
MArk
Mark
Thanks, Mark!
I myself am one of the first owners of Nathan's/your TSAD. I ordered what is now the 2012 18.3. I am a bit puzzled about the ground plane measurements Nathan posted. I was hoping for a larger difference between 18.0 and 18.3 in the 15Hz-35hz range (the one the PRs are supporting). Nathan speaks of twice the output - but +3db isn't twice the output even if 2 18.0 are located several feet from each other (you will still get almost +6db at 15Hz-20Hz). With co-locating 2 18.0s you get +6db over the entire passband.
What would be really interesting is measured data from TC-Sounds 5400 and 5100. Did you include those in your ground plane measurement session? Thanks!
I myself am one of the first owners of Nathan's/your TSAD. I ordered what is now the 2012 18.3. I am a bit puzzled about the ground plane measurements Nathan posted. I was hoping for a larger difference between 18.0 and 18.3 in the 15Hz-35hz range (the one the PRs are supporting). Nathan speaks of twice the output - but +3db isn't twice the output even if 2 18.0 are located several feet from each other (you will still get almost +6db at 15Hz-20Hz). With co-locating 2 18.0s you get +6db over the entire passband.
What would be really interesting is measured data from TC-Sounds 5400 and 5100. Did you include those in your ground plane measurement session? Thanks!
In order for an apples to apples comparision we need to consider the $$$ value. I would expect a $3000 (shipped) subwoofer (soon to be $3300.) to test better than a $2350 (shipped) subwoofer.
Between Funk Audio, JTR Speakers, and SeatonSound They represent the Best of the subwoofer offerings. So how does one asses value to performance when at every performance level there is a price increase.
I uderstand Baltic Birch curved cabniets and more watts but at the price it should be better or at least test better.
It is actually fairly easy to compare apples to more expensive apples but is the price worth it? I know you "get what you pay for" and FA 18.0 pays in spades but those spades cost quite a bit.
I have been wondering how to compare price to performance with no luck.
Just 2 cents and something to consider.
Chris
Thank You for the break down.
It helps!!!
Between Funk Audio, JTR Speakers, and SeatonSound They represent the Best of the subwoofer offerings. So how does one asses value to performance when at every performance level there is a price increase.
I uderstand Baltic Birch curved cabniets and more watts but at the price it should be better or at least test better.
It is actually fairly easy to compare apples to more expensive apples but is the price worth it? I know you "get what you pay for" and FA 18.0 pays in spades but those spades cost quite a bit.
I have been wondering how to compare price to performance with no luck.
Just 2 cents and something to consider.
Chris
Thank You for the break down.
It helps!!!
Not trying to split hairs and put too fine a point on your above, a Funk, 18.0C with upgraded Amp and cloth grill, is $2,150.00. Shipping is included.
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My online research shows the 18.0C performs about 3dB better than a SubMersive HP which consists of two 15" drivers and in my opinion, the 18.0C has more style when all and all is considered.
And my above is not a knock of any kind at the SubMersive HP's. Competition is grand and consumers get to take benefit of quality competition.
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Not trying to split hairs and put too fine a point on your above, a Funk, 18.0C with upgraded Amp and cloth grill, is $2,150.00. Shipping is included.
My online research shows the 18.0C performs about 3dB better than a SubMersive HP which consists of two 15" drivers and in my opinion, the 18.0C has more style when all and all is considered.
And my above is not a knock of any kind at the SubMersive HP's. Competition is grand and consumers get to take benefit of quality competition.
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I understood the comparison to be FA 18.0 to SubM HP not the FA 18.0c.
If someone could weigh in hear I would appreciate being corrected.
I understood the C version has a smaller amp and different driver (Italian) than the 2400 TSAD (Funk Audio in house) version.
I think the C stands for compact. Any clarification would be great.
Thanks
Chris
After rereading the above posts I really do not know which is which
the files say 18.0.
Sorry for any confusion. If it is the 18.0c than that would be apples to apples.
The 18.0 vs 18.0c is a Big difference !!!
If someone could weigh in hear I would appreciate being corrected.
I understood the C version has a smaller amp and different driver (Italian) than the 2400 TSAD (Funk Audio in house) version.
I think the C stands for compact. Any clarification would be great.
Thanks
Chris
After rereading the above posts I really do not know which is which
the files say 18.0.
Sorry for any confusion. If it is the 18.0c than that would be apples to apples.
The 18.0 vs 18.0c is a Big difference !!!
On line research is just that. As much as I admire the FA products and their gorgeous cabs, the Submersive HP has placed first or second at any of the premier big dog GTGs posted here, especially the blind audition GTG comparos, over like 4 or 5 years. I haven't seen a FA sub tested or compared at a recent GTG yet. Projected data and modeling is just that......projected. Spend $2400 for a Sub HP delivered and your done, with a very proven product and support. Mark Seaton designs and produces some of the best high end subs......history and real world testing proves this.
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1367811/subwoofer-shootout-subwoofer-roundup-url-lists
On line research is just that. As much as I admire the FA products and their gorgeous cabs, the Submersive HP has placed first or second at any of the premier big dog GTGs posted here, especially the blind audition GTG comparos, over like 4 or 5 years. I haven't seen a FA sub tested or compared at a recent GTG yet. Projected data and modeling is just that......projected. Spend $2400 for a Sub HP delivered and your done, with a very proven product and support. Mark Seaton designs and produces some of the best high end subs......history and real world testing proves this.
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1367811/subwoofer-shootout-subwoofer-roundup-url-lists
As you stated, I haven't seen anybody dragging their FA subs to a GTG. But then again, some of the models like the 18.0 C, have been out for only a couple of months.
Currently, based on conversation with Nathan at FA, he's submitting a sub to Josh at data-bass for evaluation. Not sure if one or several, nor which models. The evaluation information should be posted sometime over the next couple of months. I did note the last GTG considered of a pair of HPs and an F-2 and I don't care who one is, that's a lotta sub power at one time and it's hard not to come away with a smile after that kind of demonstration.
Tech wise, I'm sure we can agree, two 15" drivers equal one 18" driver. And physics says, Xmax sets a drivers limits, without distortion. My understanding, the SubMersive drivers have a 20mm Xmax and the FA drivers have an Xmax of ~25mm. In my opinion, these specs give the FA driver a slight edge over a pair of the SubMersive drivers. At 110dB, THD aside, I doubt anybody here is going "hear" a difference.
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As I posted, I'm not knocking SubMersive subs and after all, this is a Funk Audio thread. I'm in it for form factor and efficiency of design and size does limit our choices. This is what turned me onto the Funk Audio product mix.
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As you stated, I haven't seen anybody dragging their FA subs to a GTG. But then again, some of the models like the 18.0 C, have been out for only a couple of months.
Currently, based on conversation with Nathan at FA, he's submitting a sub to Josh at data-bass for evaluation. Not sure if one or several, nor which models. The evaluation information should be posted sometime over the next couple of months. I did note the last GTG considered of a pair of HPs and an F-2 and I don't care who one is, that's a lotta sub power at one time and it's hard not to come away with a smile after that kind of demonstration.
Tech wise, I'm sure we can agree, two 15" drivers equal one 18" driver. And physics says, Xmax sets a drivers limits, without distortion. My understanding, the SubMersive drivers have a 20mm Xmax and the FA drivers have an Xmax of ~25mm. In my opinion, these specs give the FA driver a slight edge over a pair of the SubMersive drivers. At 110dB, THD aside, I doubt anybody here is going "hear" a difference.
As I posted, I'm not knocking SubMersive subs and after all, this is a Funk Audio thread. I'm in it for form factor and efficiency of design and size does limit our choices. This is what turned me onto the Funk Audio product mix.
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My comments earlier did not play out like I had intended so a little clarification from myself is in order.
Nathan Funk and Funk Audio Represent the Ultimate in Subwoofer offerings. This man designs and builds his own amps, drivers, and enclosures. To my knowledge he is the only one doing this. Simply Amazing !!!
He is truly an audio genius and a pioneer in the field of custom powered subwoofers. He is a custom designer/builder with a few "off the shelf offerings" and his products quality command respect. That is why it is damn near impossible to compare his FA 18.0 to the Subm HP. They are for different people and different situations. When a consumer has to make a choice as to which one to go with in comes the comparision. Whether valid or not a choice has to be made.
Now as to which one to choose? If I lived in Canada Funk is the obvious choice. I have a pair of SubM HP's and my main reason was I live in the United States then 2nd was the $$$$ savings.
If the choice was a pair of SubM HP's or a pair of FA 18.0 with no money difference The desicion would be easy(for me anyway).
Pictures of Funk Audio products always make me smile. I can only think of one other thing that does that.
These are good days in audio.
Chris
Nathan Funk and Funk Audio Represent the Ultimate in Subwoofer offerings. This man designs and builds his own amps, drivers, and enclosures. To my knowledge he is the only one doing this. Simply Amazing !!!
He is truly an audio genius and a pioneer in the field of custom powered subwoofers. He is a custom designer/builder with a few "off the shelf offerings" and his products quality command respect. That is why it is damn near impossible to compare his FA 18.0 to the Subm HP. They are for different people and different situations. When a consumer has to make a choice as to which one to go with in comes the comparision. Whether valid or not a choice has to be made.
Now as to which one to choose? If I lived in Canada Funk is the obvious choice. I have a pair of SubM HP's and my main reason was I live in the United States then 2nd was the $$$$ savings.
If the choice was a pair of SubM HP's or a pair of FA 18.0 with no money difference The desicion would be easy(for me anyway).
Pictures of Funk Audio products always make me smile. I can only think of one other thing that does that.
These are good days in audio.
Chris
FWIW, as a consumer of products, I get to do anything I want in any fashion I want, without equivocation as everything I do is valid.
It's not nice to beat up on people and their egos and then expect them to like it.
I have absolutely no trouble making valid comparisons between SubMersive and Funk Audio products. Comparing similar products, using dissimilar features in which to do so, is not complicated nor to be considered an invalid evaluative process. In the short, yes, one can compare apples to oranges or even coconuts if one wants. As to where a product is made, those days are long dead and gone. It's an international market place, has been for decades and consumers need to get a grip on this point and do so every time they enter an electronics store to make a purchase.
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FWIW, as a consumer of products, I get to do anything I want in any fashion I want, without equivocation as everything I do is valid.
It's not nice to beat up on people and their egos and then expect them to like it.
I have absolutely no trouble making valid comparisons between SubMersive and Funk Audio products. Comparing similar products, using dissimilar features in which to do so, is not complicated nor to be considered an invalid evaluative process. In the short, yes, one can compare apples to oranges or even coconuts if one wants. As to where a product is made, those days are long dead and gone. It's an international market place, has been for decades and consumers need to get a grip on this point and do so every time they enter an electronics store to make a purchase.
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BeeMan
My comments have nothing to do with any of your posts.
I felt like my earlier posts could be read as negative and I wanted to clarify what I thought.
Me saying something like "valid or not" is trying to take the high road on both sides.
If I ever feel the need to direct a comment your way YOU WILL KNOW IT.
Please accept my apologies for our misunderstanding.
Chris
I had to make this choice on which one to go with myself.
I just read the interrnational part and again clarity is in order.
If you live in Canada it costa extra to ship from the U.S.
If you live in the U.S. it costs extra to have it sent from Canada.
But there is nothing wrong with Patriotism. A man should always be proud of his country.
My comments have nothing to do with any of your posts.
I felt like my earlier posts could be read as negative and I wanted to clarify what I thought.
Me saying something like "valid or not" is trying to take the high road on both sides.
If I ever feel the need to direct a comment your way YOU WILL KNOW IT.
Please accept my apologies for our misunderstanding.
Chris
I had to make this choice on which one to go with myself.
I just read the interrnational part and again clarity is in order.
If you live in Canada it costa extra to ship from the U.S.
If you live in the U.S. it costs extra to have it sent from Canada.
But there is nothing wrong with Patriotism. A man should always be proud of his country.
Thanks as based on what I had posted, it sure came across as a backhanded comment.
And I fault no one for their choices. At their price point, JTR, SubMersive and Funk Audio are top-dog contenders with, in my opinion, neither being the better of the other as each has their own design and as you stated, serve different purposes.
Some around here are a bit too quick to jump all over others as you, I and everybody else on the other side of the monitor are real people with real feelings.
Thanks as based on what I had posted, it sure came across as a backhanded comment.
And I fault no one for their choices. At their price point, JTR, SubMersive and Funk Audio are top-dog contenders with, in my opinion, neither being the better of the other as each has their own design and as you stated, serve different purposes.
Some around here are a bit too quick to jump all over others as you, I and everybody else on the other side of the monitor are real people with real feelings.
They represent The Best of the ID subwoofer and speaker makers.
Even though the products seem expensive they offer extreme value for their intended purpose. Especially when compared to others in
that price range.
Chris
Exactly. You got that right!
They represent The Best of the ID subwoofer and speaker makers.
Even though the products seem expensive they offer extreme value for their intended purpose. Especially when compared to others in
that price range.
Chris
I know how that goes. My PB13U gives me more than enough output for my tastes/lifestyle (which is fairly mild mannered next to a lot of the guys on this forum), and yet I still spend plenty of time ogling other subs. It's like women; once you've seen one naked....you want to see all the rest (maybe not all...)
![]()
I know how that goes. My PB13U gives me more than enough output for my tastes/lifestyle (which is fairly mild mannered next to a lot of the guys on this forum), and yet I still spend plenty of time ogling other subs. It's like women; once you've seen one naked....you want to see all the rest (maybe not all...)
A desire that naturally harkens back to third grade.
![]()
Nothing wrong with ogling, it's getting caught that ruins the date.
OTOH, as long as it's not ruining the bank account, getting new toys is always a good thing. This morning I received a mailing notice that the Anti-Mode was on it's way.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve1981 /t/1283555/funky-waves-audio-official-thread-prebuilt-and-custom-subs/330#post_22631398
I know how that goes. My PB13U gives me more than enough output for my tastes/lifestyle (which is fairly mild mannered next to a lot of the guys on this forum), and yet I still spend plenty of time ogling other subs. It's like women; once you've seen one naked....you want to see all the rest (maybe not all...)![]()
A desire that naturally harkens back to third grade.
OTOH, as long as it's not ruining the bank account, getting new toys is always a good thing. This morning I received a mailing notice that the Anti-Mode was on it's way.
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