[kyrill]

ffdshow forced me to rethink my attitude towards the HTPC I have. Pre ffdshow I noticed that Win DVD or Cineplayer occupied 30% or less of my AMD XP 1900+, and I was content. Also for my games and a topend video card I was ready for another year of gaming


Now I Know, the more raw horsepower I have the better. SO many filters, so many possibilities IF you have the power.


The previews and tests of the upcoming AMD 64 OPteron 146 (246) are very very promising and in many cases are 15 to 40% faster than the fastest Xeon 3.06 Gig


So I noticed the ZALMAN WB2 watercooling block for CPU'S is not only one of the cheapest (

 

[mobius]

I intend to do the same. At this point, heatsink/fan combos are still viable. I just don't see them as the long term solution to our PC cooling needs. Newer processors will put out too much heat to rely on simply heatsink/fan combos for cooling. If it's not watercooling, it will probably be heatpipes or some other invention; but I think convential air cooling will go the way of the dodo.

 

[orbitzboy]

Having my primary HTPC in my A/V rack, watercooling just scares me to death - even if you pipe the water someplace else... one bad tube clamp, and your in trouble.


On a cost per mflop, I suspect cooling and o'clocking will give you the best bang for the buck. I however continue to believe with the constant trace size shrinkage (Intel's prescott at .09mm?) and better cpu form factors for maximum heat dissipation, I suspect heatsink / fan's have enough life in them for another HTPC upgrade or two. Maybe by then we will be looking at some liquid gas based cooling (or outboard heatpipes) that won't be so dangerous.


Anyone remember the old high temperature gas nuclear reactor's france built in the late 80's? No water!

 

[alaricljs]

Er, trace size shrinkage amplifies the heat problem. What happens is taht the heat (even if it is less) is coming out of a smaller area, which means you need a more efficient cooling method.


Looking back at history, how bout those water-cooled IBM mainframes? I have this feeling that water-cooling will be coming back to the mainstream.


"Liquid gas based" cooling? If you mean something like liquid nitrogen, dream on. There is no way that exotic cooling methods will become mainstream because of the costs involved. Please remember that water is not exotic, it's been used since the beginning of high-performance computing. (for varying definitions of high-performance)


Outboard heatpipes still need a way to get the heat to the pipe. The big developments in cooling that haven't gone anywhere public yet are carbon-nanotubes and MEMS fans built into said carbon-nanotubes.


The secret to water cooling is to design the machine for water cooling, don't retro-fit a current design with water cooling.


Since you're actively cooling, invert the MB, if water falls, it falls *away*. Same with every other piece of hardware you'r actively cooling. Then install a drip tray with the appropriate exit tubing routed to your waste pipe.


Since failure is guaranteed - thanks to dear old entropy - then make it impossible for the failure to harm anything. Just because a pipe leaks, doesn't mean it has to leak on something important.

 

[zielin]

oddly enough, many ppl's system recover from water making it the system. Most mother boards will shut off right away when they detect a short. also, a leak comes in the form of a drop or two - not a flood - unlike a peliter cooler gone crazy . The leak also tends to follow the piping - so the lowest point should either be the base of the case or a drip tray like alaricljs suggested.

Like everything in life u pay for what you get. I have a feeling the the ZALMAN WB2 isn't the greatest unit. most good waterblocks (just the waterblock) are in that price range.

If one doesn't want to go "crazy" with the cooling - which is $$$ and opens the door to a lot of issues/problems and wants to get a "kit" - look @ the koolance exos. Works with almost any computer, VERY easy to setup. It will also give you better cooling the a heatsink/fan combo UNLIKE most of the cheap kits.

http://www.hardocp.com/article.html?art=Mzc2

 

[zielin]

oh, also with any water system. Just a change of the waterblock is need to fit a new CPU - not a big deal.

 

[Mark Kennedy]

I was trying ffdshow lastnight, resizing to 1280x1024 (my LCD native res) to see what difference it made. The image looked superb but the video started stuttering and skipping.


This is on a 1700+ overclocked to 2.7ghz, yes 2.7ghz and its still 100% usage. This is with vapochill cooling. I wonder how 64bit would really effect things. Is 64bit useful at all here or are those chips really good at 32bit apps too?


oh and check out www.vapochill.com you can set the fan (120mm) to 30% speed and things are still sub zero and almost silent.

 

[pavlo]

Quote:

Originally posted by alaricljs Outboard heatpipes still need a way to get the heat to the pipe. The big developments in cooling that haven't gone anywhere public yet are carbon-nanotubes and MEMS fans built into said carbon-nanotubes. [/b]

Heatpipes are just as the nam implies, a conduit for heat. Getting the heat isn't too bad, but you have to route it to the place you want to dump it, and then you still need a heatsink of some kind.


Quote:

Originally posted by alaricljs "Liquid gas based" cooling? If you mean something like liquid nitrogen, dream on. There is no way that exotic cooling methods will become mainstream because of the costs involved. Please remember that water is not exotic, it's been used since the beginning of high-performance computing. (for varying definitions of high-performance)

www.vapochill.com


Phase change refrigeration isn't just for mainframes.

Quote:

Originally posted by alaricljs Since failure is guaranteed...

Do you have that line in your resumé?


I got round that little problem by designing my water cooling rig to leak everywhere and not remove any heat, the cool running of the CPU was a welcome side effect of the (guaranteed) failure.


Paul

 

[kyrill]

Back to my original posting


My message is that that the Zalman WB2 gets very favourite reviews besting the best for 30% under the price of the best AND is ready for the Athlon 64, so you don't have to spend another 50 or more US$


Another asset of any good watercooling system, it is very quiet.

BTW 50 degrees Celsius is appr. 122 degrees F.

35 Celsius is 95 F.

The inner temp of the CPU core is possible to read as the Athlon FX has an inner temp reader. Some motherboards (Asus) use this feature.

Tests:
http://www.bit-tech.net/review/234/1

Bit tech uses an external reading (cooler)

or
http://www.ocaddiction.com/reviews/water/zalman_zm_wb2/

uses inner temp reader (higher)

 

[nm88]

Quote:

Originally posted by kyrill So I noticed the ZALMAN WB2 watercooling block for CPU'S is not only one of the cheapest (

 

[Stasulos]

Overclocking Russian way: Athlon XP 1700+ overclocked from 1.47MHz to 2.7MHz stable with liquid nitrogen cooling.

http://www.overclockers.ru/images/la.../system-sm.jpg
http://www.overclockers.ru/images/la...18/boiling.jpg


Original article here .

 

[Mark Kennedy]

Thats the exact speed I have my 1700+ running at totally stable. And its 24\\7 too, 1.9v only with vapochill. ffdshow doesn't seem too stressed even resizing to massive resolutions, but enabling dscaler makes video choppy though.


The 1700+ only cost me $30. I think it can pay off to get a really good cooling setup, then buy cpus, like these super 1700+s for next to nothing. I reckon I will save lots in the long run.

 

[pavlo]

Kyrill,


I am about to build an HTPC, where water cooling may be used. The benefit of being able to effectively spread the heat so a 120mm slow fan can cool it is very real.


However, I also want a case friendly solution, so choosing a case and radiator combo is the biggest hurdle.


I suppose I could use a seperate water cooler, disguised as another peice of hi-fi equipment in the same rack. Getting an old used amplifier may be a way forward.


Paul

 

[alaricljs]

Pavlo,


In the world of mechanical engineering, all things fail. The goal of a mechanical engineer is to aim at a very high time to failure. The only protection against entropy is a stasis field, and we sure don't have them yet. Apart from which a side effect of the stasis field would be that none of the protected equipment would be functional until the stasis field was removed.


Generally I don't bother with a resume, my work speaks for itself.


As for "outboard heatpipes" as quoted from orbitzboy, "outboard" would seem to mean a heatpipe outside of the case. As such, my statement is true, there would be a need to get the heat to the "outboard" heatpipe. It would make more sense that a heatpipe be used to channel heat to an outboard heatsink.


When orbitzboy mentioned "liquid gas cooling" it was my interpretation that he meant a noble gas such as nitrogen. Since asetek/vapochill's websites have fallen off the face of the earth I can't verify, however they most likely use standard refrigeration coolant. Not anything close to "liquid gas cooling" Phase change cooling most definitely, but far from liquid nitrogen.


Phase change refrigeration can still be considered an exotic method to cool PCs. Even with the advent of packaged solutions, what percentage of PCs do you think have phase change cooling? It's an extremely small percentage.

 

[kyrill]

pavlo


You mean a rack like a 19 inch rack where you can stack your gear?


If not, a good looking and a good solution is from Exos
http://www.koolance.com/products/pro...l?code=EXT-A01

you put the exos on top of your computer case

but I would choose a different brand cpu block.

You know my choice


BTW I have assembled many PC over the years and setting up a commercial watercooling setup is very easy and even fun.

Good Luck


Enjoy the silence, there is no way back.

 

[pavlo]

Kyrill,


I mean a hifi equipement rack rather than a 19" 42U rack.


I have a spare rad that is some 350*280*32mm which could be very useful if it were in a cooling appliance of it's own. An old Hifi case, with radiator, pump and in/out dripless connectors. You would be able to use the power switch for the pump, and possibly even a 12v rail from the power supply. A decent sized amplifier case should have ample room for a radiator.


Paul

 

[nubz69]

I think that computers are going to be moving twords quieter and quieter forms of heat dissipation. Look at the mini-itx boards, they are either passive cooling or have a single small silent fan. I also think that refridgeration is a great idea. I don't know how loud it is though can someone tell me?). With it you can not only cool your PC better then any other comertial method but you don't have to worrie about water leaks. If they could only get them down to $500 or less I think they would take off big time.

 

[Mark Kennedy]

Well there are two main vapo cooling systems around. There is vapochill made by asetek ( www.vapochill.com )


There is also Prometia made by chipcon.


Prometia is usually about $100 more expensive than vapochill. Vapochill hasn't got the same cooling power as prometia (a few degrees hotter only) but now asetek released a new vapochill called XE, the extreme edition that uses a different cooling fluid which brings them much closer.


I chose vapochill because it was cheaper, because the case looked way better and I read more positive comments about it. You can also buy both without the cases and install them in your own case.


As far as noise is concerned, I would say its very very quiet. The compressor which compresses the fluid, makes some noise but still not that much. You can choose what temperature you would like the system to run at, and the compressor will slow down (making slightly less noise) when the temperature is correct. If things get too hot, it will speed up.


As well as that, there is a fan in the top compartment that cools the compressor (because it gets very hot). On the vapochill you can select between 30% - 100% fan speed. It comes at 60% default and its about the same noise as most fans on heatsinks. I started playing with it and found 30% to be enough. OK, the cpu was a few degrees hotter but it was still stable and super super quiet. The fan is 120mm btw.


The new vapochill XE comes with a second fan to further cool the compressor. Someone else will have to tell you about the prometia because I am not sure how loud it is.


Asetek and I am sure chipcon too, release new cpu kits when a new cpu\\socket comes out. I hear already that they are setup for the new 64bit chips so....... I have this 1700+ at 2.7ghz at 1.9v and its at -18 totally stable (case shows that but actual cpu internal temperature is usually higher).