That's great news! My A1 broke yesterday (stopped recognizing HD DVDs) so I may upgrade to the XA2. This was one of my only worries with this unit.
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FW v1.6 - XA2 BM Changes!
OK, I just did my upgrade to 1.6.
Prior to the upgrade, I ran a quick check of the effect of changing the BM settings, using TRUE RTA and the noise signals on the HD DVD DVE disc, running through the 5.1 analog outputs:
> Setting all speakers to LARGE allowed me to run full-range through all speakers, with LFE coming out of the .1 output. No issues.
> Setting any speaker to SMALL immediately crossed over that speaker at the selected frequency, removing the bass below that point from the channel.
> Bass that was removed via BM was routed to the .1 output, but was substantially lower than the LFE signal (on the order of 20 dB too low). Thus, there is no way to get the signals balanced. This is the Bass Management problem that has been described repeatedly.
After the upgrade, I ran the same test.
> As before, setting all speakers to LARGE allows all channels to work properly, with no BM, and only the LFE signal going to the subwoofer.
> Setting any speaker to SMALL crossed that channel over as before.
> Bass removed from these channel is now routed to the .1 output at what appears to be very close to the correct level.
> After rough-calibrating the relative levels, the BM test signals appear to give the correct levels for each channel, with the sweeps transitioning smoothly from the sub to the discrete channels at tthe desired frequency, and the LFE noise 10 dB hotter than the managed bass signal.
> The LFE has not changed level - it still appears to be at roughly the correct -10 dB.
This is preliminary, but it appears that they have done some serious work on the bass management for the 5.1 outputs in the XA2. I will not yet state that the problem is solved, as I have more work to do to evaluate with multiple source types and decoders. However, it's looking pretty good so far!
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Prior to the upgrade, I ran a quick check of the effect of changing the BM settings, using TRUE RTA and the noise signals on the HD DVD DVE disc, running through the 5.1 analog outputs:
> Setting all speakers to LARGE allowed me to run full-range through all speakers, with LFE coming out of the .1 output. No issues.
> Setting any speaker to SMALL immediately crossed over that speaker at the selected frequency, removing the bass below that point from the channel.
> Bass that was removed via BM was routed to the .1 output, but was substantially lower than the LFE signal (on the order of 20 dB too low). Thus, there is no way to get the signals balanced. This is the Bass Management problem that has been described repeatedly.
After the upgrade, I ran the same test.
> As before, setting all speakers to LARGE allows all channels to work properly, with no BM, and only the LFE signal going to the subwoofer.
> Setting any speaker to SMALL crossed that channel over as before.
> Bass removed from these channel is now routed to the .1 output at what appears to be very close to the correct level.
> After rough-calibrating the relative levels, the BM test signals appear to give the correct levels for each channel, with the sweeps transitioning smoothly from the sub to the discrete channels at tthe desired frequency, and the LFE noise 10 dB hotter than the managed bass signal.
> The LFE has not changed level - it still appears to be at roughly the correct -10 dB.
This is preliminary, but it appears that they have done some serious work on the bass management for the 5.1 outputs in the XA2. I will not yet state that the problem is solved, as I have more work to do to evaluate with multiple source types and decoders. However, it's looking pretty good so far!
1 - 20 of 246 Posts
I would say - Go for it! It seems that they are really beginning to get a handle on this product, with each successive FW update making real progress.
Quote:
Originally Posted by geocab /forum/post/0
That's great news! My A1 broke yesterday (stopped recognizing HD DVDs) so I may upgrade to the XA2. This was one of my only worries with this unit.
I would say - Go for it! It seems that they are really beginning to get a handle on this product, with each successive FW update making real progress.
That's great news, as my Pio 1014 has no bass mgmt, so I have to run optical to get the right bass.
It is far from fixed. Same horrible bass on my end.
'Horrible bass'?
Exactly what do you mean, and have you taken any measurements? System set-up?
Quote:
Originally Posted by cuzzin /forum/post/0
It is far from fixed. Same horrible bass on my end.
'Horrible bass'?
Exactly what do you mean, and have you taken any measurements? System set-up?
Well see, I wanted to get the HD DVE disk and went out to buy it yesterday, but they did not have any, so I just ordered one online which I am waiting for. I have done the calibration I can without the disk, such as getting all speakers from my receiver at 75 dB, setting speaker distances in both my receiver and the player; however, when I have the analogs connected, I have my sub, amp, and sub settings in the player all maxed out, and the bass is still a far cry from what the toslink outputs. It's especially noticeable in musical scenes. I played the ending musical sequence of The 40 Year Old Virgin and compared the sound of the analogs to the optical, and the optical was booming while bass was almost nonexistent with the analogs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MauneyM /forum/post/0
'Horrible bass'?
Exactly what do you mean, and have you taken any measurements? System set-up?
Well see, I wanted to get the HD DVE disk and went out to buy it yesterday, but they did not have any, so I just ordered one online which I am waiting for. I have done the calibration I can without the disk, such as getting all speakers from my receiver at 75 dB, setting speaker distances in both my receiver and the player; however, when I have the analogs connected, I have my sub, amp, and sub settings in the player all maxed out, and the bass is still a far cry from what the toslink outputs. It's especially noticeable in musical scenes. I played the ending musical sequence of The 40 Year Old Virgin and compared the sound of the analogs to the optical, and the optical was booming while bass was almost nonexistent with the analogs.
OK, but you haven't actually done a calibration with a reference? You're stating that because it's different from what you get with Toslink that you are certain it's wrong? Have you added the required 10 dB boost to the .1 output? Have you considered that your receiver may not be treating the 5.1 inputs correctly?
You also said it's the 'same' bass. Are you suggesting that there is no difference between 1.5 and 1.6? If so, then you definitely aren't seeing what I am. Have you reinitialized your player after doing the version upgrade?
On top of that, I haven't seen you yet differentiate between managed bass and LFE. If you haven't yet gotten your system to where you know which signals are set at what levels, how do you know if it's working properly or not?
Quote:
Originally Posted by cuzzin /forum/post/0
Well see, I wanted to get the HD DVE disk and went out to buy it yesterday, but they did not have any, so I just ordered one online which I am waiting for. I have done the calibration I can without the disk, such as getting all speakers from my receiver at 75 dB, setting speaker distances in both my receiver and the player; however, when I have the analogs connected, I have my sub, amp, and sub settings in the player all maxed out, and the bass is still a far cry from what the toslink outputs. It's especially noticeable in musical scenes. I played the ending musical sequence of The 40 Year Old Virgin and compared the sound of the analogs to the optical, and the optical was booming while bass was almost nonexistent with the analogs.
OK, but you haven't actually done a calibration with a reference? You're stating that because it's different from what you get with Toslink that you are certain it's wrong? Have you added the required 10 dB boost to the .1 output? Have you considered that your receiver may not be treating the 5.1 inputs correctly?
You also said it's the 'same' bass. Are you suggesting that there is no difference between 1.5 and 1.6? If so, then you definitely aren't seeing what I am. Have you reinitialized your player after doing the version upgrade?
On top of that, I haven't seen you yet differentiate between managed bass and LFE. If you haven't yet gotten your system to where you know which signals are set at what levels, how do you know if it's working properly or not?
Is the poor bass just when using the analog outputs? I'm using the HDMI output to a Denon 2807 and have all the bass I could ever want.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cuzzin /forum/post/0
It is far from fixed. Same horrible bass on my end.
Is the poor bass just when using the analog outputs? I'm using the HDMI output to a Denon 2807 and have all the bass I could ever want.
I just did a quick check with the Eagles concert disc - dts 5.1. It's pretty clear that changing the crossover frequency settings and enabling/disabling BM for individual speakers now moves the low frequencies from channel to channel.
No problems getting plenty of redirected bass in addition to LFE, regardless of large/small settings. It's definitely improved, but still a bit tough to tell if it's all correct. I'll need to try a couple of other discs with different formats and more clear delineation between LFE and low frequencies in the mains before passing final judgement.
No problems getting plenty of redirected bass in addition to LFE, regardless of large/small settings. It's definitely improved, but still a bit tough to tell if it's all correct. I'll need to try a couple of other discs with different formats and more clear delineation between LFE and low frequencies in the mains before passing final judgement.
Well I'm still waiting on the disk, so no, I guess I have not done a "reference" calibration. Also, as far as I know, my receiver is not capable of adding a 10 dB boost, which is why I have been waiting for the BM issue with the XA2 to get fixed. As far as the differences between 1.5 and 1.6 (I have initialized by the way), I honestly cannot tell a difference. I have all my speakers set to "small" and I have set crossover at "80 Hz." I wasn't too sure on how to set the crossover though, I kind of just chose 80 Hz. As far as the difference between BM and LFE, I admit to not being the most tech-smart person, but, from what I understand, the bass management is what is "broken" in the XA2; the XA2 is not able to redirect bass below a certain level (not sure what that level is) to the sub, so everyone here has had to depend on their receiver to handle BM, however, mine is incapable of this, which is why I need that fix to happen. I don't doubt you have more knowledge than me on this issue, but I do know what my ears tells me, and right now, the optical is sounding much better than the analogs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MauneyM /forum/post/0
OK, but you haven't actually done a calibration with a reference? You're stating that because it's different from what you get with Toslink that you are certain it's wrong? Have you added the required 10 dB boost to the .1 output? Have you considered that your receiver may not be treating the 5.1 inputs correctly?
You also said it's the 'same' bass. Are you suggesting that there is no difference between 1.5 and 1.6? If so, then you definitely aren't seeing what I am. Have you reinitialized your player after doing the version upgrade?
On top of that, I haven't seen you yet differentiate between managed bass and LFE. If you haven't yet gotten your system to where you know which signals are set at what levels, how do you know if it's working properly or not?
Well I'm still waiting on the disk, so no, I guess I have not done a "reference" calibration. Also, as far as I know, my receiver is not capable of adding a 10 dB boost, which is why I have been waiting for the BM issue with the XA2 to get fixed. As far as the differences between 1.5 and 1.6 (I have initialized by the way), I honestly cannot tell a difference. I have all my speakers set to "small" and I have set crossover at "80 Hz." I wasn't too sure on how to set the crossover though, I kind of just chose 80 Hz. As far as the difference between BM and LFE, I admit to not being the most tech-smart person, but, from what I understand, the bass management is what is "broken" in the XA2; the XA2 is not able to redirect bass below a certain level (not sure what that level is) to the sub, so everyone here has had to depend on their receiver to handle BM, however, mine is incapable of this, which is why I need that fix to happen. I don't doubt you have more knowledge than me on this issue, but I do know what my ears tells me, and right now, the optical is sounding much better than the analogs.
Yes, the problem only affects those using analog outs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert D /forum/post/0
Is the poor bass just when using the analog outputs? I'm using the HDMI output to a Denon 2807 and have all the bass I could ever want.
Yes, the problem only affects those using analog outs.
Hello,
The standard levels for the analog 5.1 output on all DVD-V/A, SACD, HD-DVD and BD players are as follow:
Speakers set to large and sub on = -10db at the sub level
Speakers set to small and sub on = -15db at the sub level
This is to avoid an overload because of a strong bass signal on your receiver or preamp/processor analog 5.1 input. Always been this way. That's why you need a trim control at the receiver or pre/pro to handle this situation.
Hope this helps to understand what you're experiencing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cuzzin /forum/post/0
Well I'm still waiting on the disk, so no, I guess I have not done a "reference" calibration. Also, as far as I know, my receiver is not capable of adding a 10 dB boost, which is why I have been waiting for the BM issue with the XA2 to get fixed. As far as the differences between 1.5 and 1.6 (I have initialized by the way), I honestly cannot tell a difference. I have all my speakers set to "small" and I have set crossover at "80 Hz." I wasn't too sure on how to set the crossover though, I kind of just chose 80 Hz. As far as the difference between BM and LFE, I admit to not being the most tech-smart person, but, from what I understand, the bass management is what is "broken" in the XA2; the XA2 is not able to redirect bass below a certain level (not sure what that level is) to the sub, so everyone here has had to depend on their receiver to handle BM, however, mine is incapable of this, which is why I need that fix to happen. I don't doubt you have more knowledge than me on this issue, but I do know what my ears tells me, and right now, the optical is sounding much better than the analogs.
Hello,
The standard levels for the analog 5.1 output on all DVD-V/A, SACD, HD-DVD and BD players are as follow:
Speakers set to large and sub on = -10db at the sub level
Speakers set to small and sub on = -15db at the sub level
This is to avoid an overload because of a strong bass signal on your receiver or preamp/processor analog 5.1 input. Always been this way. That's why you need a trim control at the receiver or pre/pro to handle this situation.
Hope this helps to understand what you're experiencing.
But I'm right in that the BM problem has not been addressed with the 1.6 update right? Again, I don't understand a whole lot when it comes to this tech stuff, so you may have to spell out certain things for me. What is a trim control, and under what "situation" would I need one?
Quote:
Originally Posted by HiRes_PR /forum/post/0
Hello,
The standard levels for the analog 5.1 output on all DVD-V/A, SACD, HD-DVD and BD players are as follow:
Speakers set to large and sub on = -10db at the sub level
Speakers set to small and sub on = -15db at the sub level
This is to avoid an overload because of a strong bass signal on your receiver or preamp/processor analog 5.1 input. Always been this way. That's why you need a trim control at the receiver or pre/pro to handle this situation.
Hope this helps to understand what you're experiencing.
But I'm right in that the BM problem has not been addressed with the 1.6 update right? Again, I don't understand a whole lot when it comes to this tech stuff, so you may have to spell out certain things for me. What is a trim control, and under what "situation" would I need one?
MauneyM is saying that 1.6 does address the BM problem and "trim control" refers to level control.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cuzzin /forum/post/0
But I'm right in that the BM problem has not been addressed with the 1.6 update right? Again, I don't understand a whole lot when it comes to this tech stuff, so you may have to spell out certain things for me. What is a trim control, and under what "situation" would I need one?
MauneyM is saying that 1.6 does address the BM problem and "trim control" refers to level control.
If you can't add a 10 dB boost wither at the receiver or at the sub, there is nothing that will be done that will solve your problem. Even if BM was operating completely as intended, it would still be outputting a signal that is 10 dB down, per the Dolby specs. If your receiver has not implemented the Dolby spec properly (with the ability to provide the 10 dB boost for the LFE/.1 signal), then it will not work as intended with other devices that do. The trouble you are having is with your receiver, not the XA2. (I'm not saying that the XA2s implementation is perfect - it isn't. However, the -10 dB LFE level is correct and is NOT a bug.)
No. The BM problem has absolutely been addressed in 1.6, but it seems to carry some new baggage that I'll spell out below.
The trim control is an input gain setting. Most (though not all) preamps and/or AVRs have them for the sub and/or mains inputs. They can be implemented several ways; a switch on the back panel, a trim knob on the back panel, level settings from the front panel, or internal digital level adjustments accessed from the control menu. One of my Yamaha AVRs, for example, has front-panel and menu-based level and distance adjustments for the surround and center channels, but the mains and sub trim controls are switches on the back panel.
The "situation" is your equipment configuration. You can't just assume that you can plug any two components together and have them automatically operate at the correct levels and in the best way for your particular system. The DVD player designer has no idea if your system is THX compliant, set up for Dolby levels, or if your particular speaker complement needs bass management. The same holds true for the AVR designer. This is also true in 'pro sound' applications. pieces of equipment that are designed for use in both recording and live sound situations need to be able to handle both +4 and -20 dB nominal line levels. You need to understand what level your system uses and can work with, then set up each component to operate at the correct level.
The WORST situation is to have a HTIB system that is designed to be completely plug-n-play; they generally have only one mode, and if your other components don't happen to support that particular way of functioning, you're screwed. The problem, here, of course, is in the limitations of the HTIB only supporting a single spec (among many), but everyone who does this seems to blame the other components that 'won't work in my system'. This is in the same realm as the person who buys a car with a diesel engine, then complains that the gas station two blocks from their house doesn't carry diesel fuel, as if it is the gas station's fault.
Now, as for the BM changes in 1.6, I need to add another observation. Although the relative levels between LFE and redirected bass appear to now be correct, the overall level seems to have dropped. In my first-pass measurements last night, I didn't notice that re-initializing my player reset my .1 output from -10 to 0 dB. Thus it appears (although I may be wrong - I'd like confirmation from someone else who can measure this) that the BM level is now -10 dB, and the LFE level is -20 db. Correct from a relative mix standpoint, but too low overall, resulting in S/N issues. In short, it's better in some ways, but worse in others.
Can anyone check their system and see if their measurements agree?
Quote:
Originally Posted by cuzzin /forum/post/0
Also, as far as I know, my receiver is not capable of adding a 10 dB boost, which is why I have been waiting for the BM issue with the XA2 to get fixed.
If you can't add a 10 dB boost wither at the receiver or at the sub, there is nothing that will be done that will solve your problem. Even if BM was operating completely as intended, it would still be outputting a signal that is 10 dB down, per the Dolby specs. If your receiver has not implemented the Dolby spec properly (with the ability to provide the 10 dB boost for the LFE/.1 signal), then it will not work as intended with other devices that do. The trouble you are having is with your receiver, not the XA2. (I'm not saying that the XA2s implementation is perfect - it isn't. However, the -10 dB LFE level is correct and is NOT a bug.)
Quote:
But I'm right in that the BM problem has not been addressed with the 1.6 update right?
No. The BM problem has absolutely been addressed in 1.6, but it seems to carry some new baggage that I'll spell out below.
Quote:
Again, I don't understand a whole lot when it comes to this tech stuff, so you may have to spell out certain things for me. What is a trim control, and under what "situation" would I need one?
The trim control is an input gain setting. Most (though not all) preamps and/or AVRs have them for the sub and/or mains inputs. They can be implemented several ways; a switch on the back panel, a trim knob on the back panel, level settings from the front panel, or internal digital level adjustments accessed from the control menu. One of my Yamaha AVRs, for example, has front-panel and menu-based level and distance adjustments for the surround and center channels, but the mains and sub trim controls are switches on the back panel.
The "situation" is your equipment configuration. You can't just assume that you can plug any two components together and have them automatically operate at the correct levels and in the best way for your particular system. The DVD player designer has no idea if your system is THX compliant, set up for Dolby levels, or if your particular speaker complement needs bass management. The same holds true for the AVR designer. This is also true in 'pro sound' applications. pieces of equipment that are designed for use in both recording and live sound situations need to be able to handle both +4 and -20 dB nominal line levels. You need to understand what level your system uses and can work with, then set up each component to operate at the correct level.
The WORST situation is to have a HTIB system that is designed to be completely plug-n-play; they generally have only one mode, and if your other components don't happen to support that particular way of functioning, you're screwed. The problem, here, of course, is in the limitations of the HTIB only supporting a single spec (among many), but everyone who does this seems to blame the other components that 'won't work in my system'. This is in the same realm as the person who buys a car with a diesel engine, then complains that the gas station two blocks from their house doesn't carry diesel fuel, as if it is the gas station's fault.
Now, as for the BM changes in 1.6, I need to add another observation. Although the relative levels between LFE and redirected bass appear to now be correct, the overall level seems to have dropped. In my first-pass measurements last night, I didn't notice that re-initializing my player reset my .1 output from -10 to 0 dB. Thus it appears (although I may be wrong - I'd like confirmation from someone else who can measure this) that the BM level is now -10 dB, and the LFE level is -20 db. Correct from a relative mix standpoint, but too low overall, resulting in S/N issues. In short, it's better in some ways, but worse in others.
Can anyone check their system and see if their measurements agree?
I'm curious to ask.
For those of you using the analog outputs and having issues with the bass...
Have you guys tried optical or digital coax?
Are you feeling the analog connections with the bass issues are still giving you better overall sound than if you were to use optical or digital coax?
I have never tried the analog outputs on my XA1. The main reason is my analogs are tied up with my universal player for SACD/DVD-A playback. The 2nd reason is I had kept hearing about the low bass issues and I'm not even sure if this has ever been addressed on the 1st gen units. Overall I have been more than pleased with the sound coming from the digital coax connection so it has just never been something I have wanted to go through the hassle of trying.
For those of you using the analog outputs and having issues with the bass...
Have you guys tried optical or digital coax?
Are you feeling the analog connections with the bass issues are still giving you better overall sound than if you were to use optical or digital coax?
I have never tried the analog outputs on my XA1. The main reason is my analogs are tied up with my universal player for SACD/DVD-A playback. The 2nd reason is I had kept hearing about the low bass issues and I'm not even sure if this has ever been addressed on the 1st gen units. Overall I have been more than pleased with the sound coming from the digital coax connection so it has just never been something I have wanted to go through the hassle of trying.
Until 1.6 I was extremely happy with the analog outs. Without HDMI, this is the only way to use the lossless encoders, and the sound is outstanding. However, I'm going to have to come up with a work-around for the new lower LFE level, or the S/N may push me to another solution.
FWIW I just ran a very limited test measuring the signal directly from the 5.1 outs of the Toshiba XA2 using the Input signal Peak/RMS meter built into my DEQ2496 using rca-XLR connectors to join the two.
I used Stereophiles 2-channel test cd using signals recorded at -20 dBfs and activated XA2's BM by setting all speakers to small with the SW turned on. These measurements are from the Front L/R speaker outputs and the SW output.
Front L/R out = -22.9 dBu
Subwoofer out = -32.5 dBu
The signal is weak by 3dBu across the board as it should be outputting the signal at -20 dB (same as input) but other than that bass information re-directed from the mains to the Sub is about 10dB lower relative to the mains.
I noticed no difference in bass after the FW upgrade but didn't measure prior to the upgrade so can not confirm if anything has changed on my unit regards to BM.
I used Stereophiles 2-channel test cd using signals recorded at -20 dBfs and activated XA2's BM by setting all speakers to small with the SW turned on. These measurements are from the Front L/R speaker outputs and the SW output.
Front L/R out = -22.9 dBu
Subwoofer out = -32.5 dBu
The signal is weak by 3dBu across the board as it should be outputting the signal at -20 dB (same as input) but other than that bass information re-directed from the mains to the Sub is about 10dB lower relative to the mains.
I noticed no difference in bass after the FW upgrade but didn't measure prior to the upgrade so can not confirm if anything has changed on my unit regards to BM.
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