[DerStig]

Greetings,


I have been seriously considering buying either a G10 or XA10, but having some doubts regarding which one is the right one for me. I am a complete amateur and will be using this mostly indoors (90%) in my apartment, I might take it outside sometimes to the beach, but that's about it. The videos will be uploaded to my smugmug page or shared with family via DVDs (I want to retain the quality as high as possible). I would like to get something decent, the best I can buy (and use). Before coming here, I have read every single review and internet post regarding G10 and XA10 and the main difference between them. However most of them were written by professionals, I haven't seen anyone like myself trying to buy these cameras, which is why I came here myself.


The main reasons I am considering XA10 over G10 are the infrared light (which I will use on recording my baby daughter sleeping [very fun watching her move around the bed and snore in her sleep!]) and more importantly sound. I am basically wondering how good the sound is on default G10/XA10 without an external mic. Will having a shotgun mic really make a huge difference on a XA10? Will having a XLR input gives you anything other than the phantom power (what's phantom power anyways?)? I read that the default mic in G10 has directional ability and allows things like zooming which sound very advanced to me. I don't want to go overboard by getting a XA10.


I'll give you an analogy, if the difference between G10 sound and a XA10 sound with shotgun mic is like the difference between a Canon L lens and a non L lens, then I don't want to waste my money. But if the difference is like a prime lens vs a zoom lens, then so be it, I'll pay for the premium.


Please help me, this is driving me crazy!

 

[gso125]

Have you read this thread yet

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1322785


Both great cameras, xa10 has the handle with xlr mic inputs and a great IR night mode. You cant go wrong with either one.

 

[DerStig]

Quote:

Originally Posted by gso125 Have you read this thread yet Both great cameras, xa10 has the handle with xlr mic inputs and a great IR night mode. You cant go wrong with either one.

Thanks, I know the difference between the two cameras on paper in the back of my head - like I said, I have been reading about this day and night for a while

I also saw that thread, but as it's over 100 pages and I am looking for a specific info, I couldn't read every single post in it.


I guess I should have renamed my topic to be G10 vs XA10 - "Audio Considerations". Basically my question is two fold :


a) Is having a shotgun mic for very amateur use (mostly indoor in a small apartment) worth the extra cost (and the weight/ugliness of the camera/portability etc.)?


b) How good is the default microphone in G10 and how does it compare against a shotgun mic on XA10 (say Rode NG-2)?


Thanks for everyones help

 

[Ungermann]

You can use a shotgun with the G10 and with any other camera that has mic input. The major selling point is an XLR adapter, not a mic holder.

 

[DerStig]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ungermann You can use a shotgun with the G10 and with any other camera that has mic input. The major selling point is an XLR adapter, not a mic holder.

I know that, but I also know the mount point on the G10 is not front facing like XA10 not to mention XLR provides power for the mic vs with G10 3.5mm jack microphones I have to provide the battery. In addition, I'm also interested in the infrared light XA10 has, so the XLR inputs are not the only reason.


That being said, I also read that all these shotgun microphones are actually mono and they are good for dialogues and that if I want to get stereo sound, I should spend more than $700-800 for special microphones? Now that I'm thinking, is the shotgun microphone good for everyday use? I really care about how it sounds. I don't want my fingernails hitting the camcorder be heard in the video or zoom sounds for that matter. Am I making sense?


Is the AT875R good mic vs Rode NG-2? Is it true that they are a little loose so you have to put some stuff around them for fitting them properly?


I will spend the extra thousand on XA10 and the microphone and whatever comes with it, I just want to make sure I don't end up getting something for the wrong reasons. Thanks.

 

[Ungermann]

Again, it is not the mic, it is XLR. With XLR you can run a 50-meter cable to a mic and have a clean signal, while with a regular unbalanced connection you are risking to get noise even with a cable shorter than 5 meters, depends on the place you are shooting in.


There are stereo shotguns, or at least they look like shotguns, like the ATR-25. But usually they are mono.


If you mount the mic right on the camera, there is absolutely no point of getting XLR adapter, IMHO.

 

[DerStig]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ungermann Again, it is not the mic, it is XLR. With XLR you can run a 50-meter cable to a mic and have a clean signal, while with a regular unbalanced connection you are risking to get noise even with a cable shorter than 5 meters, depends on the place you are shooting in. There are stereo shotguns, or at least they look like shotguns, like the ATR-25. But usually they are mono. If you mount the mic right on the camera, there is absolutely no point of getting XLR adapter, IMHO.

Thanks, but is a shotgun mic really useful for everyday use? Mostly indoor shots? I am not going to shoot interviews or wildlife. Only my wife and my little daughter and she playing with her toys in the living room or at the beach. I really have no problem paying $500 more for XA10, I think the infrared and the extra 32GB is worth $300 alone. I'm just wondering if by buying professional gear like shotgun mic, am I doing the right thing? I don't want my video to sound weird. I am not going to do any professional editing or setup. I am going to point, shoot, save, upload, nothing else.

 

[qwerty888]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DerStig That being said, I also read that all these shotgun microphones are actually mono and they are good for dialogues and that if I want to get stereo sound, I should spend more than $700-800 for special microphones? Now that I'm thinking, is the shotgun microphone good for everyday use? I really care about how it sounds. I don't want my fingernails hitting the camcorder be heard in the video or zoom sounds for that matter. Am I making sense?

I think most amateurs won't notice about the mono vs stereo sound.


If you really care about the sounds, the XA10 seems like a better choice. The XA10 mic holder is located on the handle and when you attach the shotgun mic, it would be way above and forward the camera body. This can minimise any handling noises.


But you can also get a bracket to mount shotgun mic away from the G10 to minimise handling noise. But since you care about the cosmetic look of your camera, this is the last thing you wanna do.

 

[DerStig]

Quote:

Originally Posted by qwerty888 I think most amateurs won't notice about the mono vs stereo sound. If you really care about the sounds, the XA10 seems like a better choice. The XA10 mic holder is located on the handle and when you attach the shotgun mic, it would be way above and forward the camera body. This can minimise any handling noises. But you can also get a bracket to mount shotgun mic away from the G10 to minimise handling noise. But since you care about the cosmetic look of your camera, this is the last thing you wanna do.

Thank you for your answer. Watching this video : http://cinemasound.ning.com/video/ty...tutorial-video I am now thinking more and more this shotgun mic might not be the right thing for me. The guy in the video does a very good job explaining (4:00 and onward) how the shotgun mic is really for very specific use case (i.e. pointing the camera towards the object you are recording, but the minute you turn the camera for a few degrees to the left/right of it, you start losing sound), which sounds more like a pre-configured environment/video shoot type of thing. If I am going to record my daughter rolling on the floor in my living room and playing, I can't always be 100% that the camera points directly at her. Heck, if I mount the camera on a tripod, most likely she will be all over the place in a span of 5 minutes, does that mean the audio will be weak and strong every time she moves in and out of the range of the shotgun mic? Am I making sense?


Another example would be two people sitting on different couches in my living room. So imagine an L shaped setting where one couch is perpendicular to the other. If my wife sits on one, my mom on the other one, with my daughter playing on the floor in front of them, with a shotgun mic, there is no way to record all 3 of them like you would with a stereo internal mic?


I would really love to hear from a G10 or a XA10 owner about the internal mic that's on the camera. Is it really that bad?


Also, for cameras like G10 or XA10, are there any other microphone solutions that simply improve the quality without reducing scope?

 

[Ungermann]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DerStig If my wife sits on one, my mom on the other one, with my daughter playing on the floor in front of them, with a shotgun mic, there is no way to record all 3 of them like you would with a stereo internal mic?

A pro camera with 4 inputs will save your day (or evening). One lav for the mom, another for the grandma, the third for the kid and the fourth for ambient sound. That is, if you really are that geeky.

 

[DerStig]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ungermann A pro camera with 4 inputs will save your day (or evening). One lav for the mom, another for the grandma, the third for the kid and the fourth for ambient sound. That is, if you really are that geeky.

What are you talking about, I am having hard time justifying the shotgun mic to my wife, she already thinks I'm crazy, if I go to her with what you suggested, she will divorce me!

I don't know what to think, I just watched this, and it's outstanding:

http://www.theolipfert.com/node/1402


Maybe I should just get it and be done with it and if it's horrible, I'll return it to B&H and get the G10.


Can you guys recommend a good decent shotgun mic (up to $300-$350) that has a good range (both vertically and horizontally - this so that it can receive as much as possible from the side)?

 

[qwerty888]



Quote:
Originally Posted by DerStig /forum/post/20800702


Thank you for your answer. Watching this video : http://cinemasound.ning.com/video/ty...tutorial-video I am now thinking more and more this shotgun mic might not be the right thing for me. The guy in the video does a very good job explaining (4:00 and onward) how the shotgun mic is really for very specific use case (i.e. pointing the camera towards the object you are recording, but the minute you turn the camera for a few degrees to the left/right of it, you start losing sound), which sounds more like a pre-configured environment/video shoot type of thing. If I am going to record my daughter rolling on the floor in my living room and playing, I can't always be 100% that the camera points directly at her. Heck, if I mount the camera on a tripod, most likely she will be all over the place in a span of 5 minutes, does that mean the audio will be weak and strong every time she moves in and out of the range of the shotgun mic? Am I making sense?


Another example would be two people sitting on different couches in my living room. So imagine an L shaped setting where one couch is perpendicular to the other. If my wife sits on one, my mom on the other one, with my daughter playing on the floor in front of them, with a shotgun mic, there is no way to record all 3 of them like you would with a stereo internal mic?


I would really love to hear from a G10 or a XA10 owner about the internal mic that's on the camera. Is it really that bad?


Also, for cameras like G10 or XA10, are there any other microphone solutions that simply improve the quality without reducing scope?

Basically, the on board mic is too sensitive and I bet it picks up handling and surrounding noises. The shotgun mic is more focus and won't pick up noises especially from behind. The comparison video that you provided explains it all.


If you really particular about the audio, you can't rely on single shotgun mic. The XA10 has 2 xlr input, which you can mount shotgun and wireless mic. I'm not expert in this pro gear, so sorry I can't help you much.

 

[Steve Cebu]



Quote:
Originally Posted by DerStig /forum/post/20800803


What are you talking about, I am having hard time justifying the shotgun mic to my wife, she already thinks I'm crazy, if I go to her with what you suggested, she will divorce me!

I don't know what to think, I just watched this, and it's outstanding:

http://www.theolipfert.com/node/1402


Maybe I should just get it and be done with it and if it's horrible, I'll return it to B&H and get the G10.


Can you guys recommend a good decent shotgun mic (up to $300-$350) that has a good range (both vertically and horizontally - this so that it can receive as much as possible from the side)?

I have the G10, you do not need the XA10 for really good audio. The G10 is very good. If you really want to pay an extra $500 for infrared that's your call. To me it's a gimmick and a waste of money.

Also you can buy any mic you want for the G10 or the XA10. Th difference is XLR inputs and unless you really need to attach long cables that are totally noise free you should be fine with the G10.

What a shotgun mic really does is eliminate sounds to the sides and focuses on sound directly in front of it. You are not trying to isolate your kid from the enviroment. You want ambient sound and as she gets older you'll be able to hear her a mile away.


Also if you do feel the need to add an XLR input later you can do it for $200-$300 not including the mic. I don't use XLR and I'm doing fine without it.


If you get the G10 and a decent mic the only difference is how you input it to the camcorder. You can spend the extra money on infrared and XLR inputs but watching black and white or green movies of your kid will be nothing compared to using some light and getting color.

The mic is an extravagance.

 

[hushnow]

I have been a sound designer for almost 20 years...I am very picky when it comes to audio...The G10 on-camera mics will surprise the hell out of you...they are great and I am really impressed by the quality.


I recently purchased the Canon DM-100 mic as an option for having an external mic. It is great! and very close to mics that cost $300-$500. It fits on the mini shoe with no need for adapter or wire to plug in and it uses very little battery power.


I went back and forth for weeks on cameras and bought and tried several. The G10 has been the winner all around. it's been solid and I have no complaints.


The XA10 is nice but it really is hard to justify the extra $500 for the infrared (gimmick) and the XLR handle, etc...Think about it...if you get the XA10 you still need to buy a good mic to use with it and honestly there are not too many good mics (XLR or stereo shotgun) out there for under $500 that are not comparable to the DM-100.

 

[DerStig]

Thank you very much for all the comments. For me the things that XA10 has over G10 which are worth the $500 are:


- Infrared camera : I don't think this is really a waste of money feature. It'd be amazing to be able to record in pitch dark, especially in my baby's room when she snoring and talking in her sleep.

- Extra memory : 64 gb vs 32 gb. If I wanted to get a san disk extreme 32 gb SD card (which will give worse performance than the on board SSD canon has), it will cost me at least $100.

- The handle itself : It's nice to be able to hold the camera from the handle and have low shots, especially of my daughter when she is playing on the ground, rather than shooting from high above her.

- The position of the mic mount : Yes, while G10 does have the mic mount, it's not at the front of the camera, it's at the back. So the mic you will put there might pick up noise coming from holding the camera.


That all being said, I am not sound expert and I just don't know if I am going over board with this shotgun mic thing. I don't want my videos to sound weird and artificial. I can't constantly point the camera right to my daughter (or whoever I am recording) and if by not being very accurate with that the sound will be going on and off, that's a problem for me. Are there any shotgun mics that have a larger radius of input (not sure if I'm using the right terminology)?


Also, I thought the XLR provided power for the mic, and that with G10, you'd have to get a mic that has its own batteries? But now you are saying when you mount the mic on the G10's handle at the back, you don't need any cables and it uses camera's power?


Also the DM-100 does not seem to be compatible with G10 (checked B&H video website), am I missing something?

 

[hushnow]



Quote:
Originally Posted by DerStig /forum/post/20801502


Thank you very much for all the comments. For me the things that XA10 has over G10 which are worth the $500 are:


- Infrared camera : I don't think this is really a waste of money feature. It'd be amazing to be able to record in pitch dark, especially in my baby's room when she snoring and talking in her sleep.

- Extra memory : 64 gb vs 32 gb. If I wanted to get a san disk extreme 32 gb SD card (which will give worse performance than the on board SSD canon has), it will cost me at least $100.

- The handle itself : It's nice to be able to hold the camera from the handle and have low shots, especially of my daughter when she is playing on the ground, rather than shooting from high above her.

- The position of the mic mount : Yes, while G10 does have the mic mount, it's not at the front of the camera, it's at the back. So the mic you will put there might pick up noise coming from holding the camera.


That all being said, I am not sound expert and I just don't know if I am going over board with this shotgun mic thing. I don't want my videos to sound weird and artificial. I can't constantly point the camera right to my daughter (or whoever I am recording) and if by not being very accurate with that the sound will be going on and off, that's a problem for me. Are there any shotgun mics that have a larger radius of input (not sure if I'm using the right terminology)?


Also, I thought the XLR provided power for the mic, and that with G10, you'd have to get a mic that has its own batteries? But now you are saying when you mount the mic on the G10's handle at the back, you don't need any cables and it uses camera's power?


Also the DM-100 does not seem to be compatible with G10 (checked B&H video website), am I missing something?

I am talking about the G10 and the DM-100 as far as not needing power. The DM-100 fits on the camera shoe and works like a charm. Yes the DM-100 works with the G10 (I am looking at mine

)


I think it's a no brainer If you have the money to burn, get the XA10 and a nice $500 stereo shotgun mic and you will be set.


Also think about this...if you are in a room (unless you live in a 10,000 sq ft house with 1,000 sq ft rooms) most mics will work just fine. If you are not recording pro footage for broadcast, etc. you will be fine. Just take into consideration that the average home is noisy with refrigerator sounds, AC units, computers, etc. sometimes these act as filters and you will never hear the true sound of your space. Unless you are recording your baby on a sound stage the camera's mic will be ok and a decent external mic will be even better.


I think you are over thinking this and really getting consumed by something that is not that major of a big deal. If you can buy the cameras locally then get one and try it out if it doesn't work try another one.


here are a few videos of DM-100 audio:

 

[DerStig]



Quote:
Originally Posted by hushnow /forum/post/20804094


I am talking about the G10 and the DM-100 as far as not needing power. The DM-100 fits on the camera shoe and works like a charm. Yes the DM-100 works with the G10 (I am looking at mine

)


I think it's a no brainer If you have the money to burn, get the XA10 and a nice $500 stereo shotgun mic and you will be set.


Also think about this...if you are in a room (unless you live in a 10,000 sq ft house with 1,000 sq ft rooms) most mics will work just fine. If you are not recording pro footage for broadcast, etc. you will be fine. Just take into consideration that the average home is noisy with refrigerator sounds, AC units, computers, etc. sometimes these act as filters and you will never hear the true sound of your space. Unless you are recording your baby on a sound stage the camera's mic will be ok and a decent external mic will be even better.


I think you are over thinking this and really getting consumed by something that is not that major of a big deal. If you can buy the cameras locally then get one and try it out if it doesn't work try another one.


here are a few videos of DM-100 audio:

Look, I completely understand and I believe you. I'm pretty sure G10 is great as it is, but this is my first camcorder and I'm the type of person who tends to buy things of good quality and uses them for a long time. The reason why I came here wasn't because I was asking "if XA10 was worth the extra $500", but it was rather "if I get the XA10 over G10 for better sound quality for -->every day use

 

[Ungermann]



Quote:
Originally Posted by DerStig /forum/post/20804494


My daughter is very little and I want to make sure I capture every moment I can with her.

As long as the mic does not capture tape hiss or HDD churning, you are fine. But if you think you need a handle, XLR and a shotgun then buy the XA10 just for the sake of not going insane.

 

[hushnow]

I would only buy the XA10 over the G10 for sound quality if you plan on using an XLR mic and the other reasons you like the XA10. Buy the XA10!!!! Buy the XA10!!!! Buy the XA10!!!! Buy the XA10!!!! Buy the XA10!!!!


The point i was trying to make about room noise was not about how quiet a room is but how noisy a room is...and I don't think a shotgun mic is the solution to a noisy room unless you are in a large space (having the ability to isolate sounds) In smaller spaces it will all blend together regardless of where you point the mic.


The better the mic the more sounds you will hear that you never heard before or took for granted.

 

[Steve Cebu]



Quote:
Originally Posted by DerStig /forum/post/20801502


Thank you very much for all the comments. For me the things that XA10 has over G10 which are worth the $500 are:


- Infrared camera : I don't think this is really a waste of money feature. It'd be amazing to be able to record in pitch dark, especially in my baby's room when she snoring and talking in her sleep.

- Extra memory : 64 gb vs 32 gb. If I wanted to get a san disk extreme 32 gb SD card (which will give worse performance than the on board SSD canon has), it will cost me at least $100.

- The handle itself : It's nice to be able to hold the camera from the handle and have low shots, especially of my daughter when she is playing on the ground, rather than shooting from high above her.

- The position of the mic mount : Yes, while G10 does have the mic mount, it's not at the front of the camera, it's at the back. So the mic you will put there might pick up noise coming from holding the camera.


That all being said, I am not sound expert and I just don't know if I am going over board with this shotgun mic thing. I don't want my videos to sound weird and artificial. I can't constantly point the camera right to my daughter (or whoever I am recording) and if by not being very accurate with that the sound will be going on and off, that's a problem for me. Are there any shotgun mics that have a larger radius of input (not sure if I'm using the right terminology)?


Also, I thought the XLR provided power for the mic, and that with G10, you'd have to get a mic that has its own batteries? But now you are saying when you mount the mic on the G10's handle at the back, you don't need any cables and it uses camera's power?


Also the DM-100 does not seem to be compatible with G10 (checked B&H video website), am I missing something?

Ok just to claify the Canon HF G10 is what we are talking about. B&H Photo might have thought you meant the Canon G10 which is a still camera made 2-3 years ago. it does not support an external mic.

You will not get significantly better sound from an XA10 for your purposes. You have the ability to get better sound, but you will spend a lot more for an XLR mic.

Most external mics use an AA battery or a 9 volt battery and last for months. Phantom power drains your camcorders battery rather quickly.

Besides if you really want infrared your choice is already clear the HF G10 doesn't have it so buy the XA10. Sound from both will be more than good enough for your needs.

The fact that you will pay for infrared which you will not use nearly as much as you think you will is a moot point.


Also you do not need a $100 Sandisk extreme card. A Lexar Pro 32GB will easily do as well and costs $69 and be just as fast and reliable. Whoever told you that the camera memory is better is flat out wrong.

The memory the camera makers use is the cheapest they can get. Also transferring via USB is time consuming. SD cards are better than internal memory IMO.