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Discussion Starter #1
Just picked up my Australian HDTV decoder today - a DGTEC HD2000A. Plugged it into my G20 via Computer 2 RGBHV. Fantastic image on our only HD demo channel (TEN Sydney), but I noticed a couple of strange things:


1. When in 'Auto' source mode, the G20 chose the factory-installed user mode 1035i_R. Forcing it back to 1080i didn't seem to make a difference, but in both of these modes the image did not extend to the far right edge of the panel. I have heard that our HD transmissions are only 1440 pixels wide instead of 1920 so this may be the reason. Can anyone shed some light on what those 1035i modes are for ?


2. This was the first time I needed to use DILARD's image geometry wizard - to move the 1080i 16x9 to the top of the panel for my 16x9 screen. So I fired up DIALRD and tried to make some adjustments - the projector blanked as expected but when it came back none of the changes had any effect! I tried loading the presets for shifting a 1080i image up and the same - no effect. I have used the Pixel adjustment wizard successfully, so I don't think my DILARDs broken. Anyone got an idea as to what the problem might be?


I have been using the Comp 2 in so now I'll try Component and see whether I have more luck ...


Regs


Mark


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Mark Harwood

[email protected]
 

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Hi Mark,


I don't know much about differences between the worldwide HDTV transmission formats, but I had thought that one of the nice things about the HDTV was that it was supposed to become the worldwide standard. I could be wrong on that, since I lost interest in the format war quite some time ago (when the battle started to fall apart).


Regarding #2, Dilard 2.1 does not have the ability to modify the G20 "User" Sources. Are you modifying the 1080i standard source input or one of those special G20 "user" inputs?


Since you know what you want to do with the image, you might want to try performing the modification with the projector in 'standby' mode. This is the way that Mark Foster used to perform his mods.


The downside is obvious - you won't be able to see the changes live. The benefit is that the modification is one single update to the projector containing ALL of the changes instead of many updates, each containing one portion of the change.


Let me know if you can't get it modified and I would be happy to work it out with you.


Mark

(D-ILA owner. Dilard author.)
 

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Mark,

If the output of that receiver is anything like the RCA DTC100, you may be able to set different output timings from the receiver to fill the width of your screen. Regardless, you should be able to use the pixel clock adjustment and the horizontal positioning feature of the projector to fill the full width of the screen and have the image centered.


From reading this PDF, it is apparent that US equipment at 1080i60 is not compatible with the standard that australia has set at 1080i50. It appears that your unique 1035i mod on the factory installed resolutions are to accomodate the native rate of japanese recording equipment at 1035i30 that is being used as an interim solution.




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Don O
 

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1035i is for the now obsolete Japanese Muse HDTV analog standard.


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Robert
 

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I have a similar setup: G20 – 16:9 screen – HTPC – Dilard -and a Dish 6000 (the last just connected yesterday).


For non HD signal, I go into HTPC and use Dscaler. The HTPC is connected to Comp. 2 on the D-ila. This part all works flawlessly.


I take the HD signal from the 6000 directly to the G-20 using the YPrPb video in connectors. Image seems good, but I have not yet had more than fifteen minutes to analyze it. But I do have to find a way to shift the image up to fit in the screen. Can I use Dilard to shift the image if I am using the YPrPb video inputs on the D-ila? Are those inputs associated in any way with the computer 1 and/or computer 2 inputs? What section of the D-ila, using Dilard, would I modify to effect the image shift change in the YprPb section?


Thanks
 

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PS. Just tried the geometry wizard on the 1080i source of the D-ila. First I pushed the video button on the D-ila controller until the YPrPb input came up. It synced to a solid 1080i image. I then used the wizard to try to raise the image. I did this while watching the picture and made some changes to the ‘position’ and vertical start areas. The program indicated that the projector took the changes, but the picture did not move up or down. That leaves me wondering if I am affecting the area that deals with YPrPb input.
 

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Hi Sore Eyes,


If you've done a back-up of the Area Data with the Back-up Wizard, try checking the box called "Apply Changes Immediately" in the Image Geometry Wizard under the "Advanced" section. This will allow you to see your changes live.


You are not at risk of changing any other areas than the one you are looking at. Not only is it restricted in the software, but the projector itself will not allow it.


Mark
 

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Hi Mark,


Have been gone a few days, just back and tried ‘instant gratification’ check box. I can affect the projector in the desired mode, but cannot achieve my goal of moving the image up. I can move it down, yet when trying to shift it up, even by just one notch I see what appears to be an instantaneous move up then right back down. It appears as if the image is at the top of something already. My computer image and DVDs that I play through it sit properly at the top of the screen using the comp. 2 impute, thanks to Dilard. The projector’s blue screen aligns with the screen top with out a synced image. However, the otherwise excellent HDTV signal sits about two feet low. Above it is a black/gray projector signal that fits to the top of the screen.


The problem may be that I do not know how, or perhaps have forgotten how, to properly move the image up using your program. But the most likely issue may be that this is the first time I have worked with a HDTV signal. I will tell you that the projector confirms 1080i, and Dilard picks it up as HDTV 1080i on YUV.


Below are the relevent numbers generated from my projector using the Dilard geomitry tweek:


Position Left 0, Top 3


Dimensions Source lines 540, width 1368, height 1028,


Image Start, Horiz 120, Vert 26


I am not sure what i have to adjust when working with HDTV, so your help will be very appreciated.


Regards.
 

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Hi Walt,


When the 'Top' setting just won't go any further, you can use the "Vertical Image Start" to shift where the projector starts sampling the incoming video signal.


"Vertical Image Start" works the opposite of "Top", though, as you will feel in "Instant Gratification" mode. Down feels like up, and up feels like down. I could have easily changed the way this works, but it would have been wrong, as it really should be the opposite.


Anyway, try that instead of "Top" and see how that works for you. There is also the "Vertical Position" setting (in Dilard.exe...not in this Wizard) that is another thing to try.


Yes, lots of options. The best ones for you are "Top" and "Vertical Image Start".


Keep us posted....
 

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Update:


No luck yet. No matter which I tried, "Top" and/or "Vertical Image Startâ€, I was not able to get the image above a particular point on the screen. I could move it up or down as long as I was below the upper boundary that is preventing me from getting to the top 2 ft. of my screen. I might add that the projectors own ‘position’ control tops out at the same point, but only with a HDTV signal. My normal comp signal sent to the projectors comp II input can be moved up to and even beyond where I want it.


I looked for a "Vertical Position" setting (in Dilard.exe...not in this Wizard). I am aware of your standard position up and down controls that match those on the projectors remote (which have topped out as mentioned above), but I found no other.


As a further test, I sent the HDTV signal to the projector using the Comp 2 input to see if that made a difference; same problem at exactly the same point on the screen.


Finally, went to the projector options page, selected aspect ratio, and changed it from 16:9 to 3:4. Image went to the top of the screen perfectly, but the image was stretched and too tall in general. It appears that when the projector goes to 1080i and has a 16:9 ratio it produces an upper boundary that I can’t move the image into. Any of these things trigger an idea?
 

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Gosh, Walt...I have to admit that Milori Customer Support starts to fade a bit at 3:30 AM, but those three controls should be doing the trick.


I have made mods for both AccessDTV and HiPix HDTV 1080i images and used those same positioning controls to get it right.


Let me think about this for a bit...I'm working on getting this software ready for release so I'm doing all-nighters so I might not have a chance to respond quickly, but the next time I'm testing with the projector, I will see if I can replicate this.


I *do* know that every positioning control available on the projector is exposed in that Wizard.
 

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Thanks Mark, just get back to me when you can.


i will put a post in the HDTV section to see if anyone has a dila, dish 6000, and Dilard.
 

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I had this exact same problem a few months back: I was trying to top-align a 1080 feed with the top of my screen and couldn't get the image to rise above a certain point.


The solution involved downloading a modification to the image-geometry wizard from the Dilard site. This mod allowed the vertical positioning numbers to go below zero into the negative territory.


I checked the Dilard site but it looks as if this mod is no longer there. I might still have the file if you need it, Sore Eyes.


Let me know,


Nick
 

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Hi Nick & Walt,


I will check to be sure, but I believe that Dilard 2.1 allowed the Wizard to "go negative" on the top values within the User-Interface. You shouldn't need a mod. file to be able to pull off that trick.


I will check to be sure (since it's been a little while), but I think that if you keep going lower and lower with the value that you can make it negative. Be careful, though, there is a point where it's "too far" and you may lose video sync.


Mark
 

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Mark, I think you are correct.


I was able to go into negative numbers. (to do so, i had to use the down arrow, as the entry box would not accept a minus sign that was typed in.) This still does not address my problem.


I wonder if the scaler in the D-ila, when it is in 16:9 mode, is setting some screen door that is not being addressed?
 

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Update: what did I do right?


I now have what appears to be a good HDTV signal at the top of my 16:9 screen. Here is how I did it, and one important question that remains:


1) Using JVC remote with HDTV showing, (too low on screen), I went to Options, then Aspect Ratio, and changed that setting to 4:3 from 16:9. The image immediately went to the top of the screen, seemed the correct width, but was way to long and everything was as expected; too thin and tall.


2) Used Dilard Geometry Wizard to A) First changed Dimensions to 1360 by 768 instead of 1065. That produced an aspect ratio of 1.78, but caused bizarre stripping below the image and some distortion. And B) changed the vertical Scale to 152.38% instead of 188.24%.



Picture fills screen perfectly. Image looks excellent.


Now the question. I did this by trial and error, rather than great insight, so what have I done? By that I mean, have the adjustments that I made potentially compromised the HDTV picture quality? The projector syncs immediately when I select the correct video input, (I am not using computer one or two as stated above), and it also indicates that it is receiving an HDTV 1080i signal. Am I done?
 

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Hi Walt,


Trial and error? How could you? :D


Seriously...that's how I do it, too. In fact, that's how this whole snowball got started.


Do you still have the striping at the bottom of the screen? What are "Source Lines" set to? I believe that for 1080i, you want "Source Lines" to be 540, since that is the number of unique lines per field (you simply discount interlacing when calculating source lines).


By the way, I had to do a similar thing...HDTV was vertically a tad too short (slightly reverse anamorphic) when I had it on my 16:9 screen, so I just stretched it to fit. I sure wish I could get a 1080i circles test pattern to check circle geometry, but it sure looks right by eye. The "mod" files on the web site for the HiPix and AccessDTV cards have this stretch built in.


Guess I should have suggested that possibility, too. It sounds like you are closing in on it. Trial and error is usually the way that it happens, unfortunately.
 

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Yes Mark, the "Source Lines" are set to 540.


The problem seemed to be caused by the way the D-ila set the 16:9 apect ratio on its own. Once i got rid of that, everything fell into place as i was able to use your program to manage the image and compress it back to fit the screen.


No, there is no banding below the picture. And i guess i just got lucky here, but the thing fits perfectly. No micro tweeks to size needed.


This solution seems to throw a great image, and by using the YPrPb video in for Hi Def, (with Better Cables), that leaves the D-ila Comp 2 input available for my HTPC, DVD, and Dscaler viewing.


Thanks for the suggestions and support.
 
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