[David99]

As I asked on the CRT board, I am deciding between the Sony G90 and JVC G15, each professionally set up.


The room can be darkened, the screen will be 100" horizontal 16:9 and I watch almost exclusively DVDs.


What are the trade offs? Is the G90 worth the extra $$. Big difference in noise? Size? etc.


Thanks,


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David

 

[adaseng]

hi david and welcome.


do a search on dila or g15, g20 ect and you will see lots of post about it.


seng

 

[Dean McManis]

David,


You will most likely get one answer from the CRT forum, that the G90 is superior.


And with an optimally setup G90 in a light controlled room, on a reasonably sized screen, with a quality scaler, they are correct.


But whether you will prefer one FPTV over the other can only be decided by you after seeing the different display technologies with your own eyes.


It's not a point of one technology being wholly superior to another, it's which combination of projector features and qualities that you prefer most for your home theater.


If you are up for a trip to the south Bay Area, you are welcome to see my G15 setup (e-mail me).


-Dean.


[This message has been edited by Dean McManis (edited 07-06-2001).]

 

[aerialman]

also consider that a CRT will need to be closer to the screen (likely middle of the room, mounted to the ceiling) while a projector like a dila probably likes to be mounted more to the rear- each makes a certain amount of noise. just somehting beyond the usual things people point out.


some more standard things:


crts require maintence by you in that you will occassionally (2x a year maybe) need to do the convergence


digitals like the dila require a new bulb after 1000 hours of use and the bulbs can be a little pricy


with a crt, if you want to watch a lot of 4x3 material in a 4x3 window (black bars on the sides) you can see the effect of uneven raster wear (burn in)


digitals dont suffer from this.


- Jerry

 

[Cameron]

I really liked the G90 when I saw it running in a light controlled environment. It was fed a 1080p signal from a Faroudja processor. Very impressive. It seemed that the Faroudja cost more than the projector did though. That is saying something.


One thing to consider is that the G90 is huge. This may affect you depending on what your room is like. I would highly suggest pretty high ceilings.


The G15 is a great projector too. It works very well for me and gives an awesome image that is impressive to everybody. It has a few good flaws too, like noise and heat generated.


I guess it all boils down to how much you have to spend versus what you really want or need.


Try to get a good demo of each. Sometimes it is pretty hard to get a good demo of anything.


Cameron


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-- Well I have really blown my budget now. --

 

[Torre]

As a CRT projector owner I of course hang out on that forum but I occasionally visit here too.


I really think that the posts here have been accurate and not taking pot shots at us old fasioned CRT owners http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/biggrin.gif


I would like to add that in a perfect home theater environment that the G90 would be better. Of course everybody's set up is different. I know a guy that has his theater in his 40' x 20' game room complete with pool table and pinball machines. He wanted to be able to watch movies while playing pool! In this case, the DILA was the clear choice. I think the colors and black level look very good on his 120" screen. Of course he has lights on in the room. And although it looks 1000 times better than a CRT projector would look in the same room, it does not look anywhere near as good as my CRT projector in my theater.


Obviously, you will have to decide how your theater will be set up first. In my opinion, if its STRICTLY a room to watch movies (i.e. dedicated and closed off from the rest of the house with total light control), CRT is the proper choice.


------------------

Mark A. Torre

NEC XG-8"CRT PJ, HTPC, HDTV and loving it! The Torre Home Theater

 

[Laurence]

I have an interesting question regarding these two projectors if anyone knows the answer.


We know about the blacks and brightness differences given the same screen size. Each projector has its advantages.


However, solely on the issue of detail. Does the G15 show more detail than the G90? I've seen the G90 display 1080p several times and the picture is undoubtedly sharp. You've got 6 pole focusing and it is able to resolve right to the edge of the screen.


But, I recently saw Luca's G11 show "Gladiator" in HDTV in 1080i and I was stunned by the incredible amount of detail it displayed. I went home to watch Gladiator in HDTV on my 9pg Extra and could not see the detail. I don't recall the G90 displaying all that detail either in HDTV. On the DILA G11 I could count the fine wrinkles in Maximus' leather vest. Every freckle on what's her name's face, every nose hair on the old man's . . . well you get the picture, . . . .


or can you get that detailed picture on a G90?



[This message has been edited by Laurence (edited 07-06-2001).]

 

[RobertWood]

David,


I think the replies you have received all are very sage

advice resulting from much collective experience with one or both of these two projectors (or similar units).

I would only add that I feel pretty certain you will be very pleased with EITHER choice. You're talking about two of the very best display devices available for home theater so it will be hard to go wrong with these as your options.

Frankly, the first time I win the Lotto I fully intend to buy both a new G90 and a new G15 (until something comes along that is superior).


Bob Wood


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~ The Sultan of Cheap ~



[This message has been edited by RobertWood (edited 07-06-2001).]

 

[Phat Phreddy]

Just a little Q from someone without the opportunity to view either of these pieces of 'state of the art' HT units...


Everyone here is discussing a G90 v G15 these obviously are at quite differing price points and as such would it not be better to be mentioning a G90 v G20...


Is the G20 not being mentioned because it has some drawback in HT use that I was unaware of... My impression was it was everything a G15 is + 25% http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/biggrin.gif !! I was also very curious to discover that JVC France is (allegedly) selling these new at a closeout price of 7.?k USD (post on here but have not been able to verify) this would be very much cheaper than even G15 prices stateside but other posts mentioned that DILA is sold cheaper here in Europe than US ?!? Makes a change I suppose !!


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[email protected]
HTPC without using windows... GUI Front Ends for Home Theater

 

[Cameron]

PhatPhreddy,


The G20 is a better unit IMHO than the G15 due mostly to the 2000 lumen output.


So yes it would be better to compare it to the G90. On the other hand, it doesn't change what anybody else has already said. It is brighter. It uses the same DILA panels and such. The G15 is still brighter than the G90 by a huge bit so the G20 would be even brighter.


I wouldn't kick the G20 out of bed for eating crackers.


Cameron


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-- Well I have really blown my budget now. --

 

[dkeller_NC]

Laurence:


The "resolving power" issue between CRT projectors and Digitals has been very devisive, with some insisting that even a G90 cannot display all 1920 horizontal pixels in and HDTV signal, and some insisting that it can.


Nevertheless, since a DILA is 1365X1024, it's certain that it cannot display more than 1365 horizontal pixels in an HDTV signal. However, what detail it can display is very sharp! The transition between each pixel is abrupt - there is no "gaussian curve" for each pixel where light fall-off on the edge is gradual.


In contrast, the G90 and other CRT projectors cannot display sharply-defined pixels. They do have a gaussian curve pixel structure, which contributes to the so-called "film look" of this technology.


Getting back to your question - in test patterns of my own construction (Adobe Illustrator black-white-black alternating patterns), my G70 can display about 1400 - 1500 horizontal pixels, rated fairly conservatively. Since the G70 is a so-called 8" CRT projector, you can bet that the G90 can do substantially more.


Of course, the detail of any CRT projector is substantially dependent on how well it's set-up.


One more blurb: On the subject of cost, remember that a G90 runs about $24k brand-new, and about $19k as a low-hour "b-stock", so yes, there's still a price difference compared to the G15, but it's not as bad as the $37k MSRP would indicate. Factor in that a DILA costs somewhere between 2-3 times what a CRT unit does to operate (for bulb replacement), and the total cost comes out much closer, so it's really a personal preference about whether you like the look of CRT projection or DILA projection - as it should be!


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ABC = Another Boring Channel. Watch CBS on Monday Nights!


[This message has been edited by dkeller_NC (edited 07-06-2001).]

 

[Frank]

I seriously considered buying a G90 but decided to go with a JVC G20 D-ILA instead. I personally believe the D-ILA looks sharper with HDTV then any 9" CRT, especially at higher brightness and contrast levels.

I believe that the modulation transfer function for the D-ILA is substantially better then for any CRT.

Just as film loses light output as spacial frequencies increase, so does CRT. Put the two together and bye bye detail.


Frank

 

[Joel]

As a happy G15 owner whose room would not accomodate a G90, I would consider the G20 if I was you. This unit has slightly improved optics and digital keystone correction, for example, and is only an inch or two larger. If you're solving for the noise issue for the g15 you'll solve the g20 noise issues too.


IMO, the scaler makes an enormous difference. For the DILAs, you want a scaler to scale to 1365x1024 or 1366x768 for 16x9 material (assuming you're using a 16x9 screen). I agree that the G90 on 1080p looks great, but there are tradeoffs, including better sharpness on DVDs with a DILA as you noticed (unless you are using a Teranex scaler at over 100k).


I think the prior posters are correct; it really devolves into the kind of room and application you want. Street prices between a G90 and G20 are comparable. The scaling solution for the G20 is less expensive than the best scaler for the G90 (a Faroudja 5000 at 20-25k). The Vigatec is another possible G90 solution because it will scale 1080i to 1080p as well, but the word is that it is "softer" than the F5000, I don't know.


Good luck - it's a great choice to be in a position to make!


Cheers

 

[dkeller_NC]

Frank:


Remember that sharpness is not equivalent to detail. You're right, no CRT will ever be as sharp as a digital projector, but resolution is not necessarily dependent on sharpness, so it's easily possible for a CRT unit to surpass current DILAs in resolving power.


As an example, consider an 800X600 LCD projector. Will text on it be sharper than with a CRT projector? You bet. Is it's resolving power equivalent to an EM-focused 8" or 9" CRT unit? Not by a long shot!


------------------
ABC = Another Boring Channel. Watch CBS on Monday Nights!

 

[Frank]

Quote:

Remember that sharpness is not equivalent to detail. You're right, no CRT will ever be as sharp as a digital projector, but resolution is not necessarily dependent on sharpness, so it's easily possible for a CRT unit to surpass current DILAs in resolving power.

I say that the image produced by a calibrated D-ILA will more closely represent the original detail that was present on the film before it was transfered to digital. The reason is because the MTF of the D-ILA is flatter then the G90.


Frank

 

[Dean McManis]

I used to own the Sony 1292Q which has 9" CRTs and was the predecessor to the G90, now I have a G15. But there was nothing wrong with CRT FPTVs picture quality, I just wanted to have a larger (156" wide) unity gain perforated screen, and the D-ILA was the best way to go.


I'd say that if you setup a FPTV with 9" CRTs optimally, and turn the brightness and contrast down to keep it from blooming, then you can get more picture detail with a CRT FPTV.


Plus, as mentioned, the CRT picture has an "optical" quality which has a softer look like film does, but still retains great detail. High resolution digital FPTVs like the D-ILA offer nearly perfect picture focus from edge-to-edge which gives the appearance of being sharper and more detailed.


You can add a 16:9 anamorphic lens like the ISCO II or Panamorph to the D-ILA which reclaims more brightness and resolution with widescreen material, and softens the picture just a bit to look more like film as well.


Of course most of the time we are watching NTSC video sources which are way below the resolution capabilities of either projector, and HDTV is so detailed that it looks awesome even if we are not seeing the full resolution.


Comparing new-for-new the G90 costs about twice what a G20 does, and getting a quality scaler will add to the cost of both FPTVs, and is necessary for the best looking picture on a high-end HT setup.


Bulbs on the G20 cost about 1/3 more than the G15, and the FPTVs are otherwise nearly identical except for the light output, so if you don't have light control issues, or a totally huge screen, the G15 is still excellent, but less expensive.


But even being able to consider getting a G90 means some more room where budget is concerned, so you might even look at the upcoming JVC M2000SC which promises higher 600:1 contrast capabilities.


Any noise issues of a D-ILA can be muffled with a $500 Whisperflow hushbox, so it's not much of an issue really.


I consider the bulb cost roughly equivalent to the CRT replacement cost for 9" CRTs over the course of 5-7 years of ownership of the projector. Of course if you take good care of the projector to prevent CRT burn-in you can sell the FPTV used before that cost is incurred, and have a lower cost of ownership (purchase price notwithstanding).


Again, there is no wrong choice here because all of these projectors represent the best picture quality available today for home video use.


Although my needs are best met today with my G15, you may be better pleased with a CRT FPTV if it matches your tastes and budget well. You just need to see them with your own eyes, properly setup to decide best.


-Dean.

 

[dkeller_NC]

Hey Dean -


You mentioned that a G90 costs approximately twice what a G20 does (new). I haven't kept up with DILA prices recently, and was under the impression that a G20 was near $20k. If I interpret your post correctly, is the "street price" of a G20 now about $12k?


As far as bulb cost, it of course matters how hard you drive the projector. In the case of my current G70, I should be able to get (conservatively) about 7,000 hours out of the tubes, and replacing them is going to cost about $3,000 (again, being conservative here, as it can be done for less). Bulbs for the G11, as I understand it, are about $1k each, and last about 1000 hours. Therefore, for 7,000 hours of operation, the DILA will cost $7k, the G70, $3k, or roughly double. Using more realistic figures for CRT life and replacement, the figure is more like triple.

However, replacing tubes on the G90 is much more expensive, approximately $1500 each. I was under the impression, though, that the Xenon bulbs for the G20 run about $1400 and also last 1000 hours.


If this ain't correct, Dean,perhaps I need to re-calculate my costs and reconsider my choice of CRT vs DILA!


------------------
ABC = Another Boring Channel. Watch CBS on Monday Nights!

 

[Dean McManis]

DKeller,


"If I interpret your post correctly, is the "street price" of a G20 now about $12k?"


Yes, $24K is a very good price for a new G90, and likewise 12K is a very good price for a G20, but they both can be purchased at those prices with some research.


A/V Science sells the G11/G15 bulb for $775, and the G20 bulb for $1100.


Assuming that the 9" CRT replacement cost is including the labor costs, it comes out to roughly $4500, whereas the G15 bulb cost for those same 7000 hours would be roughly $5425.

Fairly close especially with the CRT FPTV needing ISF calibration again after retubing for another $800+/-.


Of course some people just reset the clock on the internal D-ILA bulbs to get more hours of use (at their own risk).

And likewise usually the blue tubes fail first on CRTs so you don't always need to replace them all, as long there aren't CRT burn-in problems. So the operating costs do vary.


But again this comes back to the individual user's needs and situation.


If you have a buyer who is technically skilled, or hires someone to optimally setup the G90, and doesn't abuse it by cranking up the brightness and contrast settings, then they can have less chance of incurring expensive repair costs.


But for people who are used to just firing up a tube TV, playing computer and console games, or surfing the internet, a digital FPTV is essentially worry-free. They know that the only cost will be bulb replacement.


Still, with either FPTV I'd recommend having it as a secondary, movie-only display, and to have a regular TV for watching the news and sitcoms.


With light movie/event viewing, you might go couple years before replacing a bulb on a D-ILA, and may never face replacing the CRTs on your G90 before selling it to get the latest greatest FPTV in a few years.


-Dean.

 

[RF1031]

I honestly thought for a second that it said GOD vs. G15.

Hmm.

Randy

 

[Mark Hunter]

Randy, I hope that we don't ever have to make *that* choice.