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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I am considering building some kit mains.


I have two contenders at this point. I will be driving them with a mid level Denon Receiver. My surrounds are Definitive in ceiling units with aluminum dome tweeters and passive radiators.

The walls are treated with 1 fiberglass with diffuse panels near the side speakers and in the back.


The first is the Clearwave Dynamic 4T's and center
http://www.clearwaveloudspeaker.com/Dynamic/4T.html
http://www.clearwaveloudspeaker.com/Dynamic/4CC.html


88db sensitivity at 8 ohms. The cost of the complete kits is around $2,000.

That does not include wood type materials. The labor on this kit is not insignificant. The cross over is pre-built.

A plus to me on this kit is that it looks pleasing. My theater currently looks pretty good and I would like to keep it that way.


The second is the Gedlee Abbey
http://www.gedlee.com/abbey.htm


95 db sensitivity at 8 ohms. The cost of three across the front is $3,600.

This does include wood parts and is easier to build but it can not be easily fully veneered.

The sides can be veneered pretty easily but the front must be painted.

Aesthetically it is not as pleasing as the Dynamic 4T to me. The center would have to be below the screen tipped back to be directionally correct.


My room is small and from my reading I perceive that the Abbey will have a better chance at sounding good because the sound is very directional and not as susceptible to room boundaries. I also like the higher sensitivity. As an added bonus I am near Earl Geddes and can demo the Summa, larger version of the Abbey without too much trouble.


There are some cool DIY horn designs being worked on right now but my electronic knowledge is limited and I want a proven design. My current speakers are 13 years old I hope to make the replacements last that long.


My thought is to do this later this year. I am seriously considering getting a second DTS 10 while it is still available in kit form. That may be over the top for my 1700 cubic foot room but I feel it would stop me for thinking sub upgrade for quite some time, hopefully forever.


Does anyone have thoughts?
 

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Whichever path you choose, definitely go listen to Earl's setup. I like my Nathans so I have no doubt the Summas and Abbeys are great speakers, but the real draw for me would be to hear the LF performance in his room as others have reported it as being rather amazing.


Even if you don't buy his speakers I think his room will probably push you toward controlled/constant directivity high efficiency designs. If that's the case, from there you can decide if you want to go for something like the econowave deluxe or one of Geddes offerings.
 

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I built a pair of Abbeys (veneered them and covered the front with grill cloth)... they sound great. You will need a sub to go with them because they start rolling off below ~100Hz or so. The dynamics and imaging are amazing, and they work quite well in my (somewhat large) room without any special acoustic treatments. I use then for HT as well with a phantom center, which works quite well. I don't know anything about the Clearwaves.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZilchLab /forum/post/18237126


By "later this year," I expect EconoWave Deluxe will be a proven design.


At $425 apiece including PC boards, they are the value leaders by far among these contenders:

http://techtalk.parts-express.com/sh...78#post1624578


[Better order your QSC waveguides now, tho....
]

Zilch, In that link I see a Yamaha NS-690 in the background. I still have a pair of those that I bought new back in the early 80's. I hooked them up about three weeks ago (left in place for about a week) and they still sound good.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by DougSmith /forum/post/18237420


I built a pair of Abbeys (veneered them and covered the front with grill cloth)... they sound great. You will need a sub to go with them because they start rolling off below ~100Hz or so. The dynamics and imaging are amazing, and they work quite well in my (somewhat large) room without any special acoustic treatments. I use then for HT as well with a phantom center, which works quite well. I don't know anything about the Clearwaves.

Thanks Doug I read your whole build thread.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZilchLab /forum/post/18237126


By "later this year," I expect EconoWave Deluxe will be a proven design.


At $425 apiece including PC boards, they are the value leaders by far among these contenders:

http://techtalk.parts-express.com/sh...78#post1624578


[Better order your QSC waveguides now, tho....
]

I read your thread. Very interesting thank you. I did not see any mention of anyone listening to any material? Is there another thread?
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by mjg100 /forum/post/18237560


Zilch, In that link I see a Yamaha NS-690 in the background. I still have a pair of those that I bought new back in the early 80's. I hooked them up about three weeks ago (left in place for about a week) and they still sound good.

They are on the short list here. Don't know if I've yet posted it anywhere, but I do have data.

Quote:
Originally Posted by t6902wf /forum/post/18237818


I read your thread. Very interesting thank you. I did not see any mention of anyone listening to any material?

As of now, I have the only pair, but others in this forum are building similars, Augerpro's "No Quarters," for example, being closest.


None of the half-dozen or so who have listened to them has challenged my own synthesis:


"We have quite stepped in it with these."


Quote:
Originally Posted by t6902wf /forum/post/18237818


Is there another thread?

Yes, the main EconoWave thread is over on AudioKarma, presently with 10,000 posts in 665 pages and over a half-million views....
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZilchLab /forum/post/18237933

They are on the short list here. Don't know if I've yet posted it anywhere, but I do have data.


As of now, I have the only pair, but others in this forum are building similars, Augerpro's "No Quarters," for example, being closest.


None of the half-dozen or so who have listened to them has challenged my own synthesis:


"We have quite stepped in it with these."



Yes, the main EconoWave thread is over on AudioKarma, presently with 10,000 posts in 665 pages and over a half-million views....

I would like to see the data. I think I still have the brochure and if I remember correctly it showed polar plots.
 

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Not to throw a fly in the ointment but Jed's Dynamic series are very good. (Rest of the rant deleted to avoid flame wars. Suffice it say that Jed is a very good designer using very good drivers and the real world sensitivity difference is probably much smaller than the respective mfr's specs would lead you to believe.)
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by catapult /forum/post/18238217


Not to throw a fly in the ointment but Jed's Dynamic series are very good. (Rest of the rant deleted to avoid flame wars. Suffice it say that Jed is a very good designer using very good drivers and the real world sensitivity difference is probably much smaller than the respective mfr's specs would lead you to believe.)

We know the LF driver used in the Abbey, the B&C 12TBX100 which has 95db sensitivity. The tweeter is higher so why would you think the Abbey would be anywhere near the 88db sensitivity of the Clearweave 4T?
 

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Bill,


Any reason you're not considering the Nathan's as well?


They're smaller and cheaper, and by all accounts they're fully up to any home installation.


The response curves actually look a bit better to me than the Abbey's.


Re finishes, dunno if it fits your decor, but I was thinking of trying a black base coat topped with a clear topcoat with bronze powder in it


TAP Plastics has the latter for adding to their resins; not sure if it can be sprayed or not.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by mjg100 /forum/post/18238706


We know the LF driver used in the Abbey, the B&C 12TBX100 which has 95db sensitivity. The tweeter is higher so why would you think the Abbey would be anywhere near the 88db sensitivity of the Clearweave 4T?

Here's the factory curve of the B&C. It's about 85dB at 80Hz and 75dB at 40Hz. Jed builds speakers that are flat down to at least 40Hz and quotes accurate sensitivity including all the EQ in the crossover to get that done. It's kinda apples and oranges but by the time you build a real speaker with flat response, the B&C is going to be nowhere near 95dB. The crossover can't boost anything, it can only do cuts to bring things down to the lowest level to get things flat.

 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz /forum/post/18238848


Bill,


Any reason you're not considering the Nathan's as well?


They're smaller and cheaper, and by all accounts they're fully up to any home installation.


The response curves actually look a bit better to me than the Abbey's.


Re finishes, dunno if it fits your decor, but I was thinking of trying a black base coat topped with a clear topcoat with bronze powder in it


TAP Plastics has the latter for adding to their resins; not sure if it can be sprayed or not.

Geddes describes the Summa as sounding the best and the sound quality falling off from there. I believe it was the size of the wave guide that was the most concerning.


My goal is to buy a good speaker and keep it for quite some time as I mentioned earlier. I am trying to keep away from the future urge to upgrade and going to the top of the available kits makes me feel like I would limit my buyers remorse.


Wanting to add a second DTS-10 in a 1700 cubic foot sealed room is indication of how I think, bigger is better.


Please excuse my ignorance with this observation. Should I be considering the following simple math.


My current mains are MTM with 6" mids for a surface area of 226 square inches. The Nathan has 314 square inches and the Abby 452 square inches. I realize this is crude but the Abby has quite a bit more surface area to generate the dynamics I am interested in.


To be fair using that same logic the Dynamic 4T has 715 square inches of mid/bass driver.


What is the best way to look at this?
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by lennon_68 /forum/post/18240564


Just a quick correction - area is pi*r^2, looks like your calculations are using pi*d^2. So using driver size/2 for r (which isn't actually accurate but close enough) the numbers would be:


current speakers: 56.6

Abbey: 113

4T: 153


Thanks not enough coffee.

The Nanthan is 78.5
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by t6902wf /forum/post/18240579


Thanks not enough coffee.

The Nanthan is 78.5

Yeah, the only reason I noticed it so fast is because I've made that same mistake more than a couple times



I don't really know how valid that is as a comparison but another thing to look at if you're comparing the area of the drivers would be to check the volume displaced by multiplying by xmax (6mm for the 6T's and 9mm for the Abbey) which looks like both end up at 36 cubic inches.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by lennon_68 /forum/post/18240564


Just a quick correction - area is pi*r^2, looks like your calculations are using pi*d^2. So using driver size/2 for r (which isn't actually accurate but close enough) the numbers would be:


current speakers: 56.6

Abbey: 113

4T: 153


Far more accurate are the Sd numbers off the driver datasheet. For example the 12TBX100 in the Abbey is 531cm² or 82.3in²

Multiply both by Xmax to give Vd, but that only tells how much air it can pump, not how cleanly it does it.


A 12" driver has a 12" frame, not a cone 12" in diameter.


For the OP, I would go with one of the Ewave designs myself or an Abbey. I have a strong preference for controlled directivity designs based upon my experience.
 
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