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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Stacey,


Is the FLI2301 chip that Genesis just announced at SID one of the "surprises" you have teased us with:


1. DCDi


2. non-linear enhancement


3. (Here it is ...... what we've been waiting for .........) Various built-in scaling modes!


Is this finally THE CHIP????? (Assuming it's combined in DVD players with no chroma upsampling design error decoders!)
 

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Yes, I saw it in action 5 months ago.


3. DVD players will only be able to offer the aspect ratio control. Don't expect them to output 720p.


Is this the chip? It depends if they fixed the 2220 delay problems that exist today in all products using 2200 + 2220. If they did not, then the chip will not be as good as the 2200 standalone. Only time will tell.


BTW, the scaling engine in this chip is better than both the PixelWorks and Genesis standalone chips. (Not as many taps as the Teranex, but more than the rest, including Mediamatics.) This is the NR on a chip, actually better.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Stacey,


I figured months ago that a combination chip from the Genesis/Faroudja marriage was coming and that you were probably quite aware of it.


Was the delay problem the one you mentioned in Shootout II as showing up in the Kenwood DV-5700?
 

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This is not a marriage chip. The next gen chip (post 23xx) will be a marriage. The two companies did not work together until the day the merger was complete. This chip was designed and developed long before that.


Yes, same delay error that is in Kenwood DVD, Krell DVD, Marantz DLP, Seleco DLP, and ALL Faroudja videe processors.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Stacey,


Interesting ............ before the marriage chip design huh? I didn't think Faroudja would risk torpedoing it's stand-alone video processor biz by combining too many of their secrets/patents into a $20 chip for the masses! If the FLI23XX scaling is as good at that in the Genesis existing chip, then what would a marriage chip bring to the ball game anyway? Of course "scaling" has to be defined .......... properly sizing deinterlaced non-anamorphics is not the same thing as making 480i into 540p or 1080i.


The way the FLI23XX feature list reads though, what's left of the Faroudja video processing secrets and/or patents from their 3000/4000/5000/NR series video processors that's not included in the FLI23XX chip family feature set?


Sure would be nice to pick up a $239 Pany DVD player next year with the FLI2301 in it. Of course this could make you a lot of work - explaining for months over this forum "What the video delay bug looks like on their screens and what players did, and did not, have the video delay bug."!
 

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Faroudja box side and Sage side did not work closely. The Sage side had no idea about the Faroudja DVD player until the last minute. (just prior to CES)


All is not perfect in Genesis land, which is too bad. If they don't get some competition soon, they might not have any reason to fix their flaws or improve the technology. I guess Don and i will have to work overtime to apply the pressure. ;)


They are not going to let anyone use the scaling feature for a *competing* product. It will most likely be part of the licensing agreement this time around. There will be products that use this and output 720p, but don't expect them to take in DVD signals.


I will do both aspect and scale. It was designed to scale down HD at high quality. (Not saying it will support that, but that was part of the design goal) It takes many more taps to scale down than it does to scale up.


It also does frame rate conversion. (50 -> 60 Hz, etc.) No 72 Hz or 48 Hz output though.


The big Faroudja boxes use FPGAs and will continue to use them to be in the lead. (I don't consider NR a big box) We will point out a big flaw or two in current Faroudja technology in the next shootout. (Perhaps before years end) I hope they use this info to improve their chips.


You don't want a player with the 2301, you want one with the 2310 and ADV73xx. I suspect the first players to use this will be priced >$500. (last comment is pure speculation on my part.)


Companies to keep an eye out for include Samsung, Philips, Kenwood, and Panasonic. They all seem to be the bigger mass names using their technology.
 

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Hmm.. wonder how difficult it would be to reprogram the chip so one locked to low resolution in a DVD player would output say XGA or 1080P ^_^


Oh yes - Stacey, what's the ADV73xx do?


(starts saving up for a new player)
 

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Quote:
We will point out a big flaw or two in current Faroudja technology in the next shootout.
Mr. Spears, exactly what does that mean? Will these 'flaws' effect the new Panny releases such as the RP82K, and what might those flaws be?


Regards,

Hank
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
This is what Stacey gets for being "The Man Who Knew Too Much"!
 

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Hank, the current 2200 chips have this flaw too. Though it was a design choice, so it is not a flaw per say. But when we mention it, their competition willl take advantage of it, if there is any left.


The DAC in the 2301 is just your standard 10-bit / 54 MHz kind and the package is designed as a lowcost all-in-one solution. When you integrate both of those into the same chip, you may have more room for noise. The 2220 had a DAC in it too, but it was never used.


Bob, no, I believe it is the same. The sage chips are actually highly programmable. It is possible to make players perform worse and maybe better. Look at Skyworth vs. RP56. There are things the Skyworth will drop into video on, which causes moire type artifacts. These same scenes are ok on RP56.


It adds scaling (both higher rates and aspect ratio), noise reduction (real NR and not simply a threshold), integrates the enhancer, and a few other changes.
 

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Oh, there is competition left. But some of us already have a pretty detailed idea of the issues with Sage's choice of deinterlacing algorithms.


The market for standalone video output chips is currently booming, but its long term future is limited. Ultimately, deinterlacing will be integrated into a single DVD system chip, as is happening to more and more processors. Sage (now Genesis) currently has a significant quality advantage over integrated progressive on system chips, but that will not last too long. Current system chips tend to cost in the neighborhood ten dollars. But many consumer electronics manufacturers believe MCDI quality is required for their progressive players, which in the case of a Sage chip adds another twenty dollars.


System chip manufacturers drool at thirty dollar processor price points. Now, most manufacturers don't have the MCDI expertise to take advantage of that market. However, I work for one that does. We have full MCDI on a high-end system chip aimed at products such as DVD timeshifters; we will do our best to freeze Genesis out of the mainstream DVD-R/timeshift/HDTV market. Customers will buy our system chip, and hey, it comes with MCDI, even if an external chip would be a bit better, it will rarely be 10-20 dollars better. Then we will sell a cheaper version for DVD players to try and cash in on the $$$ Genesis is getting there.


From a business point of view, Genesis has a significant problem once any system chip manufacturer integrates MCDI that is at all close to their quality levels. They don't have the system chip to attach. Within a couple of years offboard video chips will be relegated to a minority of high-end players.


(FYI, a DVD timeshifter is a DVD recorder that can record and play back at the same time, like a Tivo only using a DVD).
 

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Folks, being a newbie, what is MCDI?


What does this mean for the current releases of units like the Panny 62K and 82K? What chip are they using?


Thanx
 

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Yep, Ian's company and the few other integrated companies are now the main competition for Genesis. Of course Genesis now has their own MPEG decoder, so they too can build an intergrated solution. This competition is good.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Stacey,


Is the Genesis decoder designed correctly?
 
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