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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
This crazy little hobby of recording and archiving television programs may be a thing of the past if the content providers and studios have their way. As things go digital and high def, the corporate greedmongers are stumbling over themselves to try to find ways to prevent you from copying their stuff. With the huge success of DVD sets of television shows, it will only make them more rabid to SELL you their content instead of letting you RECORD and keep their content. We may face the very real possibility that Hidef signals across the board will have to be bought, ie video on demand style, and will not be able to be copied. Why should HBO let you record a copy of the Sopranos when they know they can get you to go out and buy the DVD set?


Unless people speak up and let their representatives know that they want their RIGHT to personal use copying protected from the greedmongers, the studios will be stuffing dollars into their pockets to get them to sign off on their anti-consumer agenda.


In a way, the advent of the popularity of the PVR (Tivo etc) may work against those of us who also want to archive recordings for the long haul. The reasoning will be that people will use PVRs to time shift in lieu of the VCR, but there is no need to allow those recordings to be KEPT. It won't take much to be able to prevent you from recording from a PVR to a permament DVD.


Make some noise about this issue now before it is too late. And in the meantime, record away.
 

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I saw this coming a mile away. They never liked the VCR in the first place. Most people couldn't or wouldn't use one to record, but with a dvd recorder being easier to use to timeshift plus archive in the analog domain. Your prediction is their gameplan. We'll see how it plays out in the coming years.
 

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Pre-recorded VHS tapes became copy-protected when people started to copy them. DVDs were encrypted from day #1 and encumbered with a region code to restrict global distribution. The media companies have had an absolute right to lock their content and protect their profits under both Democratic and Republican administrations. When the laws change they do so to favor the protection of the media (DMCA). After all, they pay a lot of taxes on those profits (not to mention campaign contributions).


The saving grace here may be that the consumer electronics industry is as powerful as they are and will have to be reckoned with. If the media companies have their way and are able to digitally prevent all recording of broadcast television, the electronics companies stand to lose big $$ in lost sales (which also means lost taxes) of technology they have developed but is now useless. A compromise is inevitable . . .


I'll be willing to bet you will never see hi-def DVD recording. My money is on the TiVo-like PVR to allow you to time shift hi-def -- with some new "features" that may make it less convenient to skip through commercials. As I said, the electronics industry will have a say here so I bet the big concession to recording will be the output of a downconverted 480i signal out the composite jack (S-Video if we're lucky but never component) of the PVR along with 2.0 stereo sound (gee just like we have now). Or how about a new "hi-def" DVDR with an ATSC/cable-card tuner, a huge HDD and integrated burner that burns/plays normal DVD or high-capacity HD/BR -- only wrinke is the burn is downconverted 480i & 2.0 stereo. If you want better you can always buy the season set on HD/BR in 16:9 hi-def and 5.1 sound (and without those stupid channel IDs in the lower corner or the supremely irritating scrolling weather/news updates across the bottom). Everybody wins, to some extent.


Such gloom -- must be getting ready to rain -- thanks for the opportunity to vent.
 

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Kelson said:
Pre-recorded VHS tapes became copy-protected when people started to copy them.


REPLY: Not true. Many of the major companies were encrypting right out of the gate; releases such as Superman, Bonnie and Clyde, Enter the Dragon, The Wild Bunch, Alien, etc, were using an anti-copy scheme that altered the vertical sync signal. Unfortunately, this caused a lot of grief for both sides, as there were many returns due to many of the original tapes losing vertical sync through out the movie. And when a person paid a hundred dollars for a VHS edition of Superman, it really made them angry.


I was a partner in one of the very first video rental stores in Rockland County. I ended up buliding a device that helped stabilize the vertical sync and sold it for almost cost (14.00), so my customers could watch rentals or purchased movies without going nuts. At the time we were getting 5.00 a rental (1 day), and the business took off like greased lightning. The last thing we wanted were disgruntled customers.


The plain truth was that about sixty percent of our customers were copying the movies. More for the reason of watching at their convenience than archiving. They rented a new release in the middle of the week and made a copy to watch on the weekend. At a hundred bucks a shot, mom & pop stores couldn't afford many copies of the same title, so one could count on the fact that the latest releases would be next to impossible to get over the weekend.


The studios then moved on to the Macrovision scheme, which was supposed to copy protect without disrupting normal playback. Of course this wasn't the case (especially for people with higher-end gear), so many people ended up making big bucks selling "Video Stabilizer" devices ;) By the first Christmas season, even large chains such as Crazy Eddie was stocking several types of signal enhancing units. Building and selling such devices became quite a cottage industry. (Beta owners were laughing at all of this becuase Macrovision had no affect on Beta machines).


And the beat goes on!
 

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IMO there'll always be some company that will sell some form of technology to let you "over-ride" any type of tech. eg. Sima CT 200 (and others) for VHS's and DVD's currently. I understand there being sued, no matter the outcome someone will take there place and continue to develope technology that overrides any form of copy protection. However they may not be sold nationwide in BB's and Circuit Cities as the ct-200's are now. Maybe be a little more underground.
 

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I recommend visiting and maybe even signing up to the Electronic Freedom Foundation web site. Exhaustive studies, articles, etc on this topic. They are for video and audio what the Ameican Civil Liberties Union are to free speech, protest, etc.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by squonk
With the huge success of DVD sets of television shows, it will only make them more rabid to SELL you their content instead of letting you RECORD and keep their content.
I got a DVD recorder so that I could record stuff off TV for keeps (duhh). But there's really only one show I've been continuously recording to DVD ('er'), and even with that, I'm more bugged by the bugs and slightly off commercial breaks, logos, etc.. for other shows, I'm VERY glad that the DVDs have been a huge success -- because I'm renting shows instead of recording their original runs.


Yes, I'm somewhat being Devil's Advocate. However, as long as I can rent the DVDs, having them commercially available is a better viewing experience than burning my own.


The other things I record for keeps (ignoring a bunch of old videotapes, some of which I won't bother dubbing because the legit versions ARE coming out -- e.g. Nowhere Man) are mostly musical performances from talk shows and a funny bit here and there from SNL or the Daily Show.


Basically -- I will be really annoyed if we're entirely prevented from doing recording. However, I don't see the great success of TV show DVDs negatively like you do.


Heck, I *want* PPV TV to come into place. If I can watch new episodes of TV shows WITHOUT bugs, onscreen ads, squished credits, etc., I'll gladly pay a little bit for each episode instead of cable. I'd pay the same overall, even a little bit more, for the exact content I want in a better presentation. (But since that doesn't seem to be happening, renting DVDs is close enough.)
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by mattack
I got a DVD recorder so that I could record stuff off TV for keeps (duhh). But there's really only one show I've been continuously recording to DVD ('er'), and even with that, I'm more bugged by the bugs and slightly off commercial breaks, logos, etc.. for other shows, I'm VERY glad that the DVDs have been a huge success -- because I'm renting shows instead of recording their original runs.


Yes, I'm somewhat being Devil's Advocate. However, as long as I can rent the DVDs, having them commercially available is a better viewing experience than burning my own.


The other things I record for keeps (ignoring a bunch of old videotapes, some of which I won't bother dubbing because the legit versions ARE coming out -- e.g. Nowhere Man) are mostly musical performances from talk shows and a funny bit here and there from SNL or the Daily Show.


Basically -- I will be really annoyed if we're entirely prevented from doing recording. However, I don't see the great success of TV show DVDs negatively like you do.


Heck, I *want* PPV TV to come into place. If I can watch new episodes of TV shows WITHOUT bugs, onscreen ads, squished credits, etc., I'll gladly pay a little bit for each episode instead of cable. I'd pay the same overall, even a little bit more, for the exact content I want in a better presentation. (But since that doesn't seem to be happening, renting DVDs is close enough.)
Don't get me wrong, I am all for the option to buy commercially available DVDs of movies, TV shows and concerts IF I SO CHOOSE. And I have many store bought DVDs. After years of taping Seinfeld episodes I was snapping up the box sets the day they came out. Its great to have unedited commercial free content. But the point is CHOICE. I want to have the freedom and option of recording what I want for my personal use without unreasonable restrictions, copy protection, broadcast flags and other roadblocks. The marketplace should be about choice, not restriction.


I am a heavy recorder of live music appearances from concerts, talk shows etc. Alot of that stuff won't ever see the light of day commercially. Some of it is a one time shot. Trio used to run Letterman reruns with live performances. Sadly, Trio is now off the air. SNL still does, but a lot less of the old episodes are shown. PBS used to have Sessions at West 54th. Gone. For me, musical performances on those shows can be priceless. I want the ability to record them, archive them and later watch them in the form and manner that I choose, not subject to some corporate suit arse-kisser's whim.


And with regard to HBO and other pay channel services, I have already paid for the content once via my subscription--I shouldn't be forced to pay repeatedly for the same thing. The bottom line is freedom of choice for personal use, and not overly restricting that freedom due to overreactions to fears of piracy. I remember when cassette tape recorders first came out--I distinctly remember the music industry back then crying wolf with a doomsday scenario whereby they would be put out of business because everyone would be taping music on cassettes and sharing them instead of buying the album. Sound familiar?
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by mattack
You may claim that this will never make it to market, but just a week ago this was in the news:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/pcworld/2005...NlYwMlJVRPUCUl
mattack,


Don't read into my quote what is not there. I said

"I'll be willing to bet you will never see hi-def DVD recording."


Re-read the rest of that paragraph. I never said you would never see HD/BR recorders. Of course they will eventually hit the market and they are what they are -- high capacity DVD recorders. I just don't have confidence you will ever be able to use them to record hi-def/5.1 programming from commercial TV. I really believe they won't allow it.
 

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Only 10%(at best) of ex- VCR owners have bought DVDR's yet. And they are talking marketing HD Recorders?-How many average Joes have HDTV?- Give us a break. This is all BS. Think about it and you will come to your average Joe street sense.
 

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i use mine to time shift mainly because work hours of me and my wife and if it is real good i buy the dvd because of 5.1 sound as of no dvdr i know of records more than two channel audio. besides one hour recording limits things to record if you want best pq.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonGuy
Only 10%(at best) of ex- VCR owners have bought DVDR's yet. And they are talking marketing HD Recorders?-How many average Joes have HDTV?- Give us a break. This is all BS. Think about it and you will come to your average Joe street sense.


??? What is all BS? Who are you referring to?

If you don't think there will be a drastic push to severely limit and restrict bit for bit Hi-Def recording, no street sense will help you. In a few years, all of us will have HD capable TVs--or haven't you heard?
 

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Squonk- Do you have any fathom that this board and it's posters are such a small microcosm it is probably similar to the evolution of life in that small pond? Yes , it is true. You must understand this and the relativity of it all. In fact you are preaching to so few it translates to nobody in the greater scheme of things.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonGuy
Squonk- Do you have any fathom that this board and it's posters are such a small microcosm it is probably similar to the evolution of life in that small pond? Yes , it is true. You must understand this and the relativity of it all. In fact you are preaching to so few it translates to nobody in the greater scheme of things.
HBO, Cinemax and Showtime have all begun instituting various levels of copy protection already. This has already been extensively discussed and debated in other threads. If Hi-Def content providers prevent Hi-Def copying, as others (see above) believe is inevitable, it will not only affect us microcosms in the small pond, it will affect EVERYONE who ever wants to copy and record stuff. But the fact that it is a relativley small number that want to record for archive purposes in the grand scheme of things makes it all the more absurd that companies like HBO etc are going to such great lengths to PREVENT it. So your remarks are misdirected--you should be contacting the movie studios and television people and asking them--why are you spending so much time, money and effort to prevent us piddly little pond microcosms from recording stuff?
 
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