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Getting 480i digital signals into new video processors

2573 Views 36 Replies 16 Participants Last post by  dr1394, 
Bob Sorel
People talk quite a bit about transporting (for lack of a better term) raw 480i digital signals from a DVD player to one of the new generation (HQV) video processors, and for the most part people do it by adding a SDI modification to their player of choice and then buying or adding a SDI input on their video processor. Since the new HQV processors can input 480i over DVI/HDMI, I had inquired about the possibility of buying a SDI->HDMI converter, since I already own a SDI modded Panasonic RP-82. Some people chose to buy the Key Digital Blaster, which will do the conversion (with the newest firmware), but has the unneeded capability of scaling the signal as well. So instead of having a ~$100 converter box, you have to buy a ~$700 box just to convert SDI to HDMI. When I asked why they are using this $700 box, this is what was said:

Quote:
This is really an easy one: because we simply have no alternative! There is no SDI->HDMI converter up to now (and if eventually one comes up from Algolith, it sure will cost at least $500), and there are only *very* few DVD players outputting interlaced HDMI (ok, these are alternatives to buying a KD box, but not flexible).
I can agree that having a player that outputs 480i over DVI/HDMI is not as flexible, but is it really that bad? Here's a list of current DVD players that have been confirmed to output 480i:


Pioneer Elite 79avi

Pioneer Elite 59avi

Sony DVP-NS975V

Arcam DV79

Marantz DV9600

Classe CDP-300


and maybe the Momitsu 880DX


Some of those players are probably pretty pricey (I haven't bothered to check), but the discontinued Sony DVP-NS975V can be had as a refurb for under $200. Since all we are concerned with is getting the raw digital signal from the player to the processor, do we really care how many bells and whistles the player has? I mean, aren't we simply using the player as a delivery mechanism, essentially equalizing any differences that might exist between players?


If that is indeed the case, would that not be a far more cost effective way to transport the raw digital signal from one place to another than any other method yet in existence? Why buy a $700 box and then have your player SDI modded (for several hundred dollars more), when you can buy a player that outputs 480i for under $200 and simply connect it to a HDMI input that can input 480i, thus allowing the processor to do both the deinterlacing and the scaling, and presumably much better than any upscaling player could ever do?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Sorel
...When I asked why they are using this $700 box, this is what was said:

Quote:
This is really an easy one: because we simply have no alternative! There is no SDI->HDMI converter up to now (and if eventually one comes up from Algolith, it sure will cost at least $500), and there are only *very* few DVD players outputting interlaced HDMI (ok, these are alternatives to buying a KD box, but not flexible).
I can agree that having a player that outputs 480i over DVI/HDMI is not as flexible, but is it really that bad?
Because I was the one having posted the answer, I have to admit that I expressed bad what I meant: With "not flexible" I really wanted to say "not flexible choices". E.g. for me the problem is that I want a disk changer, but there is none outputting 576i. Therefore given the non-existing alternatives I'm happy to pay for the KD box, even if it is in some sense "overblown" for my purposes. After all, it's simply my only option, so it's a no-brainer :)


But if I just would want a DVD player for my forthcoming Vantage, I sure would take one from your list.
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Bob Sorel
Quote:
E.g. for me the problem is that I want a disk changer, but there is none outputting 576i.
Ah, gotcha...:) If my plans included a DVD changer I would be in the same boat.


Ok, in that case then, for someone like me, is there any particular reason that using something like the Sony DVP-NS975V/Vantage-HD HDMI combo would be in any way inferior to using a SDI modded Panasonic RP-82/Vantage-HD SDI (when it becomes available) combo? Could I expect reasonably identical performance?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Sorel
... is there any particular reason that using something like the Sony DVP-NS975V/Vantage-HD HDMI combo would be in any way inferior to using a SDI modded Panasonic RP-82/Vantage-HD SDI (when it becomes available) combo? Could I expect reasonably identical performance?
The difference would be the relative quality of the mpeg decoders, and whether or not the 975 does any other processing on the hdmi signal.


I am really curious about the relative mpeg decoder quality issue. I tried, but could not find any discussion on this in the archives. It seems like almost everyone with an SDI mod has modified a well respected player like the older pannys or top-model Denons, which have known good decoders. I saw an SDI-modded 3910, into a lumagen hdp-pro(I think), and I can testify that it gave a stunning picture :)


I was working this type of of a plan also. But I do not currently have an SDI player, and cannot see paying extra for both the player and the processor. I decided on a the 79avi. Hopefully that will either be equivalent performance, or at least close enough to make it a preferable trade-off against two boxes with not-main-stream mods.
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Bob Sorel
Quote:
The difference would be the relative quality of the mpeg decoders, and whether or not the 975 does any other processing on the hdmi signal.
Good points. My RP-82 was well known for having a top notch decoder, but I figured that by now pretty much every decoder would be excellent. Is this not the case? Are there still plenty of poor MPEG2 decoders being made? And does anyone know how the decoders in the Sony stack up?


As far as "other processing" is concerned, I thought that the idea of providing a 480i signal was not to process it in the first place, but you are right, Sony certainly could be processing the signal. Is there any way to find out one way or the other?


If the Sony decoder is decent and they leave the 480i signal untouched, these discontinued units could very well become valuable commodities much like some of the older Panasonic players.


Are there any other companies that have announced plans for supporting untouched 480i output through HDMI? Or anyone who has announced a standalone SDI to HDMI converter (without any unneeded scaling)?
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sspears
Quote:
My RP-82 was well known for having a top notch decoder, but I figured that by now pretty much every decoder would be excellent. Is this not the case? Are there still plenty of poor MPEG2 decoders being made?
IMO there are only two MPEG decoders that are equal to or better than what is in the RP82. Sigma Designs and MediaTek.


From my experience, what is in the Pioneer 79AVi is not as good as the RP82. What is in the Sony is not as good as the RP82 either.


Even the RP56/62 are not as good as the RP82/91. The RP56/62 crops 5 pixels on the left and 6 on the right while the 82/91 crop 0 pixels.


In the case of HDMI, you want 8-bit YCbCr 422. If your player is passing 444 in either YCbCr or RGB, then you may run into the Silicon Image 9030 clipping bug. This only occurs if the conversion from 422 to 444 is done by the 9030. If it is done before the 9030, then you may be OK, such as with the Pioneer 59/79 AVi.


One of the best DVD players on the market is not actually for sale. It is the Academy player that members get for voting. It is based on the Sigma Designs part. Sadly it does not offer 480i over HDMI, but its 480p, 720p and 1080i outputs look really good when the flags are correct.
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Bob Sorel
Thank you for that very detailed answer, Stacey! :)


So it would seem that already owning a SDI modded RP-82 that I am halfway to having one of the best STB DVD players I could own. Maybe investing $700 in the Key Digital Blaster would not be such a bad idea after all, heh? Or is there a better (cheaper) way to convert SDI to HDMI to get the 480i signal into my Vantage-HD?


Edit: I guess Falk already answered that question. It would seem that the KD Blaster currently is the only game in town. It's too bad that we are paying for functionality that isn't needed, as a SDI->HDMI interface should be a lot simpler and a lot cheaper.
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sspears
When the new Oppo 970H comes out, it should be one of the best 480i players. (480i over HDMI) It is faster at navigation and layer change than the RP82. It should be under $200 and be that perfect "video transport".
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Bob Sorel
Problem solved! Thanks again, Stacey! :)
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Bob Sorel
Stacey, if you are still monitoring this thread, one last question - Do you expect that the HDMI 480i output of the upcoming Oppo 970H connected to the HDMI input of the Vantage-HD to be as good as connecting the same pieces of gear via SDI? Or put another way, is either method of digitally transporting 480i inherently superior to the other in any way?
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Kris Deering
The HDMI output of the 970H is in the 422 YCbCr domain, and is excellent. Right now I think it will be the best option out there. No chroma issues, extremelly fast transport, and clean signal. Keep on the lookout for it!
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B
Not wanting to hijack this thread, but does anyone know whether the hdmi output from the Arcam DV79 is 422 YCbCr or one of the 444 variants?
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K
When is the 970H expected to be released?
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W
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bails
Not wanting to hijack this thread, but does anyone know whether the hdmi output from the Arcam DV79 is 422 YCbCr or one of the 444 variants?
Not familar with the Arcam but you want the DVD player to upsample 4:2:0 to 4:4:4?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wjchan
Not familar with the Arcam but you want the DVD player to upsample 4:2:0 to 4:4:4?
I may have confused myself here. I actually just want to know if the Arcam's interlaced hdmi output is the same as what I would get from an sdi output (and hence whether I should have an sdi output added to the player).
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S
Sigma Designs. I noticed none of the Sigma based players seemed to fare well on the Benchmark tests. Any guess how the REALmagic Xcard with the Pixel Magic Systems SDI out for Xcard in a HTPC might fare against my XP30 if I SDI modded it?


Oppo 970H. Seems odd to go back in numbering consider the 971H is already been around. But the 970H will sport an HDMI connection while the 971H has the DVI connection? I assume the expected big advantage here is the HDMI out will allow the YUV 4:2:2 out while the DVI out requires the player to convert to RGB 4:4:4? Still, the 971H seemed to fly through the Benchmark like no other. Is it's RGB output really a problem?


Has there been any progress on the expectation of being able to SDI mod the Oppo units? Or are we hoping Oppo gives us a truly pure HDMI output and we can just forget about SDI moving forward?


HDMI. YUV 4:4:4, 4:2:2, 4:2:0. Is an HDMI compliant device suppose to be able to receive any of these formats? If my scalar has a DVI input, I assume it can only receive RGB 4:4:4, and so I would need to set the Oppo as such? (don't have one, contemplating a HD+ rather than a VP30).


Any chance the 970H will give us 48Hz output as an option for film material?
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Is YUV the wrong term to use when talking about data on the DVD and data passed via HDMI? I see YCbCr in this thread, but isn't that just YUV in the digital domain, while YPbPr is YUV in the analog domain?
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Kris Deering
Quote:
Oppo 970H. Seems odd to go back in numbering consider the 971H is already been around. But the 970H will sport an HDMI connection while the 971H has the DVI connection?
That is because this unit will come under the 971. There is a replacement for the 971 in the works too. The 970 won't have a Faroudja chip in it, only the mediatek. But it will output 480i via HDMI to feed a scaler, so no SDI required!!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sspears
IMO there are only two MPEG decoders that are equal to or better than what is in the RP82. Sigma Designs and MediaTek.
I am new on AVSforum so please excuse me if this question has been answered multiple times.


Just what processing does an MPEG decoder actually do, and how do these affect the image?


I (think I) know what deinterlacer and scalers do. I can also understand the tradeoffs that are taken when designing a deinterlacer and a scaler. An MPEG decoder, as I understand it, simply reads the MPEG stream and converts it to a BT565 video stream.


Let me ask the question differently: If I take three chips, Mediatek, Sigma Designs, and say Mitsubishi, and send all three over SDI (NOT HDMI!) to a processor, like a DVDO VP30, won't all three images be identical? (I am assuming none of the chips have "bugs" like the CUE bug)


Am I missing something?
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oferlaor
The one problem I did see in the Oppo 971 was a timing issue (they have been working on it for ages) when outputing 1080i50 and 720p50. The DVI timing is seriously off.
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