[rhyvun]

Assuming that you are interested in actually having a gjallahorn cabinet (no subs) built for you.... what would you be willing to pay for it? Excluding shipping.

I ask this out of my own curiosity, wondering if there is a market in me building these. Out of baltic birch plywood of course.
Archaea, what do you think?

 

[lukeamdman]

Assuming that you are interested in actually having a gjallahorn cabinet (no subs) built for you.... what would you be willing to pay for it? Excluding shipping.

I ask this out of my own curiosity, wondering if there is a market in me building these. Out of baltic birch plywood of course.
Archaea, what do you think?

Where are you located?

 

[NWCgrad]

Interesting!!!

 

[Samps]

IIRC they're no drivers currently available for that horn.

And pretty sure you would need Ricci's approval to sell them for profit.

 

[lukeamdman]

IIRC they're no drivers currently available for that horn.

And pretty sure you would need Ricci's approval to sell them for profit.

Most likely Tom Danley. He has the patent on tapped horns.

 

[cookieattk]

Most likely Tom Danley. He has the patent on tapped horns.

tapped horns have been around since before tom danley was born his patent is frivolous like most are.

 

[DevonDeyholos]

Most likely Tom Danley. He has the patent on tapped horns.

Who has the patent on ported subs? If that were the way it worked, they should be making a killing with all the martys and stonehenge subs that get sold around here.

 

[Mfusick]

Those are a ***** to build. I would imagine the going price would be $1000+ per cabinet.

I wouldn't even cut sheet goods for less than $50 per sheet. That's just flat packing it.
By the time you get the sheet, cut it up, handle it, package it, etc.. $50 is a deal for that trouble.

Assemble a Ghorn requires expensive wood- in 5x5, and the plans are rather complicated compared to a simple sealed sub or a marty cube.
It's not a beginner job.

I've had about 10 people PM me or ask me privately about building them some, I always say sure sure I am game and it sounds fun.
Then I start throwing real prices at them and they run away, never heard from.
Often they say stuff like they will try themselves and such- but it's never really true. I never see any threads go up.

The reason why more people don't have Ghorns isn't because they suck. It's because they are challenging to make and it's real DIY.
There is only a handful of people running them because only a handful was willing to go build them, and pony up $ for expensive drivers.

I have (2) LMS sitting here waiting to get dropped into something like a ghorn. I originally contemplated making two ghorns, and selling them with the LMS inside for some quick profit. But it seemed challenging and not worth the risk or trouble. Plus I think I want to build my own version of the ghorn, Lilmike has been working with me and offered to help. I'd like something that is similar but an easier fold, and works better with standard 4x8 3x4" cheaper ply that is more easily available. I also trust lilmike to bring it in close to simulation, as he's fairly experienced with tapped horns. (much more than me).

Josh is one of the other few that seems to have good experience with tapped horns. The fact they are more difficult to design, more difficult to build, and more expensive to make and need more expensive woofer (like LMS or whatever) is why you see so few of them. But they are among the best bass you can buy, and considering the output not really a bad deal.

How many sealed weak sauce HT18 does it take to beat a ghorn at 16hz or 20hz ? It's like 97db vs 118db or something 1:1, so two HT18 = +6 right? That is 103db. 4 = +6 again. 109db. 8 = +6 again... 115db. 16=+6 again... ok we are there. So (8) HT18 won't beat a single Ghorn with a single driver at 16hz. 16 can do it. Considering the space and cost - including the wattage for all those woofers- it's not really a bad deal at all IMO.

how many dollars of Seaton Submersive would it take to beat a Ghorn at 16hz ? more than my bank account has...

Ghorn is a premium subwoofer- and a properly built one- that looks nice is worth easily a couple thousand bucks IMO.
The driver alone is $950. People that think the UXL is as good- are on drugs. It's not. And its never been measured or proven to be either. LMS is a better choice because it's a better driver - and comes out in reality closer to the modeling suggests because of the kind of driver it is. LMS loaded Ghorn built well and working- is easily worth $2000+

 

[Mfusick]

Who has the patent on ported subs? If that were the way it worked, they should be making a killing with all the martys and stonehenge subs that get sold around here.

I don't think it matters. Tom has never voiced a serious concern about the DIY community. He's a fan of DIY audio.

I think if someone starts selling retail tapped horns- that might be a different story. There is a line somewhere between them I am sure. He might even be cool with lending the patent for the right reason- never know unless you ask. I would certainly expect him to not want someone to start making pro audio tapped horns and entering his market space though.

 

[rhyvun]

Wow great replies.

Here is the thing, I'm not really an audio buff like you guys.
I know Archaea and think that his audio system is the best I've ever heard. Me though, I am an amateur woodworker and and IT professional.
I use handtools almost entirely for the stuff that I build, and I have heard Archaea talking about this gjallahorn on many occasions.
If I'm not mistaken I heard one at the only speaker meet I've ever been to. It was pretty impressive.

Thought I would take a stab at it when time allows just for fun. But intend to sell it when I was done as I don't really have a place for such a monstrous thing in my house and my wife would not go for it. Or the neighbors.

I live near Kansas City.
My backup plan is to make Archaea buy it but then I would have to build two. I have no idea what it's really worth though.
If I do get the time to build it (I have several other projects in front of it) and it turns out well I was thinking about offering it here to you extreme enthusiasts who would be able to save up to have such an exotic piece of equipment.


Edit:
As far as patent goes... I suppose I would worry about that if there truly was an interest. I am not a professional shop, I don't have a CNC machine... for that matter I don't even have a proper panel table saw -- like I said I use hand tools not power. So each cabinet that I would potentially build would be a work of fun/love. But I'm getting too far ahead of myself (thinking perhaps a mahogany veneer, maybe walnut... maybe the build can be done with dovetail joints so there aren't any screws -- only glue).

 

[Archaea]

This thread was created without my knowledge or intentional stimulus, BUT IT HAS MY INTEREST.

I have a certain friend, @d_c , who I could probably commission to build me a gjallarhorn --- when the time comes, though I'd consider one built by you as well if you were wanting some project fodder.

Yes - the gjallarhorn and the orbit shifter are the two most impressive subs I've heard. I'd likely strongly consider taking a pair of either over my eight sealed 18" Ultimax 18's.

BTW, @rhyvun , you heard the T48 horn sub IIRC, from the 2013 speaker meet in the park. The Gjallarhorn is order of magnitudes more powerful!

As to your original question....

I bet some enthusiasts wouldn't mind paying $3k for something like a gjallarhorn if they had no other options in their pocket to make it themselves. Think about it --- the top tier of internet direct subs is hovers around $3k, and they do not best the gjallarhorn in the lower frequencies down to about 15hz in most any case I'm aware of. The Orbit Shifter probably has more SPL capability up top than the gjallarhorn ---- so that's a trade off. The OS is about $3.3k. (before shipping) --- but it includes a 4000 watt amp. So you aren't going to be pricing anything much higher than that and having it sell like a hotcake - since there is competition.

 

[rhyvun]

This thread was created without my knowledge or intentional stimulus, BUT IT HAS MY INTEREST.

I have a certain friend, @d_c , who I could probably commission to build me a gjallarhorn --- when the time comes, though I'd consider one built by you as well if you were wanting some project fodder.

Yes - the gjallarhorn and the orbit shifter are the two most impressive subs I've heard. I'd likely strongly consider taking a pair of either over my eight sealed 18" Ultimax 18's.

BTW, @rhyvun , you heard the T48 horn sub IIRC, from the 2013 speaker meet in the park. The Gjallarhorn is order of magnitudes more powerful!

As to your original question....

I bet some enthusiasts wouldn't mind paying $3k for something like a gjallarhorn if they had no other options in their pocket to make it themselves. Think about it --- the top tier of internet direct subs is hovers around $3k, and they do not best the gjallarhorn in the lower frequencies down to about 15hz in most any case I'm aware of. The Orbit Shifter probably has more SPL capability up top than the gjallarhorn ---- so that's a trade off. The OS is about $3.3k. (before shipping) --- but it includes a 4000 watt amp. So you aren't going to be pricing anything much higher than that and having it sell like a hotcake - since there is competition.

My bad, I guess when you're used to Logitech & Bose being "nice speakers" something like a T48 horn sounds pretty good. I would really like to hear the gjallahorn now.
@Archaea, so what you are sayin' is that there are probably guys around here that would buy a gjallahorn for $2000-$2500 (with an LMS driver) + shipping if applicable?

If that is the case I will write it on my future project list and it will be a reality given time. I will probably do a prototype out of regular plywood though just to iron out the kinks before I touch something more exotic like voidless baltic birch.

Man I have it in my head that I want to do one with a walnut veneer... I like walnut. Dang might have to be book matched, not sure if I can get walnut veneer that wide.

 

[Archaea]

that's a lot of veneer...

gjallarhorn boxes are big! A pic from when a local member, @d_c, put a pair in his ceiling.
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-diy-speakers-subs/1495785-doug-s-dual-gjallarhorn-build.html

 

[diy speaker guy]

tapped horns have been around since before tom danley was born his patent is frivolous like most are.

There are examples that look like what we now call tapped horns that far predate the patent, like the Jensen Transflex (1954?) and IIRC a JBL model from the same era (Aircirc or something?), and many more modern back loaded horns with the driver inside the mouth.

BUT Danley laid out a consistent way to use the mouth side driver tap to achieve a very specific goal that had either never previously been recognized or at the very least had never been voiced. That's grounds for a patent by definition.

 

[Mfusick]

Does an OS really have more up top than a Ghorn? What do you mean by up top ?

Even sealed subs are loud up top. That's cheating.

If you wanted up top you'd build an Othorn instead of a ghorn.

 

[diy speaker guy]

I don't think it matters. Tom has never voiced a serious concern about the DIY community. He's a fan of DIY audio.

I think if someone starts selling retail tapped horns- that might be a different story. There is a line somewhere between them I am sure. He might even be cool with lending the patent for the right reason- never know unless you ask. I would certainly expect him to not want someone to start making pro audio tapped horns and entering his market space though.

I saw a post on one of the pro audio boards quite a while ago (and it might have been a couple of years old at that time), probably authored by Ivan Beaver that clearly said that DSL had lawyers and was gearing up to use them against anyone profiting on DSL's patented intellectual property. He gave a few examples of infringements they were looking at, including but not limited to people building tapped horns for sale and even renting out tapped horns. It wasn't made clear if they were looking at diy and small scale production or not.

I can't find that post anymore, or any others related to this issue, so take this for what it's worth - my recollection of a forum post I saw a long time ago.

Clearly diysoundgroup had no trouble (at least no issues that were made public) with the tapped horn they were selling but I would tread lightly here. I'm pretty sure that if they were directly asked they would legally have to say no or charge a license fee. Allowing anyone to use the IP is grounds to lose the patent (or at least risk the efficacy of legally defending it against people they wish to pursue for infringement in the future). Failure to defend your IP is a big deal in the patent world. It's complicated and they might choose to ignore it, but I don't think they CAN allow you permission to do it without a licensing agreement without risking their patent standing and/or ability to defend against infringement in the future.

 

[lukeamdman]

that's a lot of veneer...

gjallarhorn boxes are big! A pic from when a local member, @d_c, put a pair in his ceiling.
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-diy-speakers-subs/1495785-doug-s-dual-gjallarhorn-build.html

Indeed, they are large

 

[diy speaker guy]

Recently I found out there is no fair use policy on patents, so legally diy'ers are not even legally allowed to make their own. Technically, even putting up a design of a patented alignment and encouraging others to build it is "indirect", "secondary" or "contributory" infringement, and people that build it are directly infringing.

The chances of these offenses committed by a diy'er that doesn't ever sell anything ever being pursued are close to zero though and are likely of no legal consequence with respect to defending the patent, but it does go to show that this issue a bit more complex than it's usually presented. Previously I thought diy'ers could build and use whatever they want, but that's apparently not true from a strictly legal standpoint.

 

[Archaea]

Does an OS really have more up top than a Ghorn? What do you mean by up top ?

Even sealed subs are loud up top. That's cheating.

If you wanted up top you'd build an Othorn instead of a ghorn.

I mean at higher bass frequencies.

The driver that Jeff uses in the Orbit Shifter is VERY sensitive at say 100hz. IIRC, from a conversation with Jeff it was over the low 100dB mark in sensitivity in upper bass. I can't remember the exact specifics --- this was a conversation from the 2012 subwoofer meet I hosted. I don't believe the gjallarhorn is that sensitive in the higher bass frequencies --- not to mention the orbit shifter, in the quite different front loaded horn design/ vs tapped horn design will have a smoother FR plot in the upper bass frequencies. But down low 15-30hz? (guessing on exact FR points) it's likely wholly the gjallarhorn's ballgame.

Jeff mentioned that he planned to have everything in his subwoofer line up tested by Josh Ricci this summer, so we should have some apples to apples at some pont.
http://jtrspeakers.websitetoolbox.com/post/show_single_post?pid=1286728773&postcount=13

 

[Archaea]

I thought Josh designed the Gjallarhorn? How is there a patent that would hold any weight against a competing design. It's not identical. That's like Tylennol saying you can't make a pain medication because they own pain medication --- instead of just saying you can't use Tylennol's ingredient list.

I'm obviously not familiar with patent laws --- but it would seem if it isn't a clear plagerization of work - (which a different horn path, size, and driver use wouldn't be!??!) -- then how would there be any conflict?