so stick a low res lcd panel in between the lens and high res dlp/lcos/lcd panels and you have the brightside concept. Interesting... 
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Goodbye DI, hello to ANSI cr>50000:1!
Perhaps not this year but I am sure some company will implement this.
http://www.brightsidetech.com/whitep...ghtside_P1.pdf
My main concern is the availability of a high fill factor low resolution monochrome lcd.
Yes, this is about what is possible with projection. It is not about the 37 inch HDR display.
http://www.brightsidetech.com/whitep...ghtside_P1.pdf
My main concern is the availability of a high fill factor low resolution monochrome lcd.
Yes, this is about what is possible with projection. It is not about the 37 inch HDR display.
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imws
Yes, the concept is simple but you have to develop clever software to control all panels. They will have to convert 8-bit video to 16 bit video being displayed by the system as a unit.
Yes, the concept is simple but you have to develop clever software to control all panels. They will have to convert 8-bit video to 16 bit video being displayed by the system as a unit.
Sounds simple enough. Looks simple enough from the illustrations. Be rather interesting to see DLP and LCOS hybrids.
CMRA
Yes, simple enough so that you would think some company will choose this approach.
Developments
8 to 16 bit video transformation is probably not simple
finding/developing suitable lcd means some work
adapting light engine to work with the extra lcd panel is also something that needs work
Yes, simple enough so that you would think some company will choose this approach.
Developments
8 to 16 bit video transformation is probably not simple
finding/developing suitable lcd means some work
adapting light engine to work with the extra lcd panel is also something that needs work
I don't like the low res LCD part in it. The resulting picture can not look like full res with the same contrast. There must be trade-offs/compromises. And what is this ANSI CR thing? ANSI of 50000:1 is totally unnecessary even if they could achieve it. On-Off should be so high and higher. But probably they mean On-Off > ANSI >= 50000:1 which looks the same as On-Off >= 50000:1 > 5000:1 >= ANSI.
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You should change this to "may" not. The key is in the implementation. A number of folks on this forum have seen Brightside's standalone displays that use the same technology and have been blown away by the results---to the point that the displays may be too revealing for 8-bit video.
| I don't like the low res LCD part in it. The resulting picture can not look like full res with the same contrast. |
This would be a perfect application for Canon.
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The document indicates they're talking about a 9 or 16 block checkerboard ANSI contrast test. Seems to makes sense to me that they could easily make that test perform very well since it's a pretty low resolution test, probably pretty simple like create blockout pattern on the LCD in the lightpath and boom the black squares are now much blacker than the white squares.
| Originally Posted by mhafner I don't like the low res LCD part in it. The resulting picture can not look like full res with the same contrast. There must be trade-offs/compromises. And what is this ANSI CR thing? ANSI of 50000:1 is totally unnecessary even if they could achieve it. On-Off should be so high and higher. But probably they mean On-Off > ANSI >= 50000:1 which looks the same as On-Off >= 50000:1 > 5000:1 >= ANSI. |
Ericglo
If someone was working on this for a front projector it would not have to be too far from market introduction. Could we see this in a product next year?
mhafner
I think the only product that could satisfy you is the scanning laser system LDT from Jenoptik. I think you could live with them only giving you 1080p. However it will cost you 1M$.
This approach I linked to should be no more difficult than a DI to implement. We might just enjoy the end result.
The display can be brighter since the light engine does not have to be as focused on high contrast. Some contrast can be exchanged for more light output.
The simultaneous contrast can allow eye popping imagery.
You can get the black level you desire so much.
If someone was working on this for a front projector it would not have to be too far from market introduction. Could we see this in a product next year?
mhafner
I think the only product that could satisfy you is the scanning laser system LDT from Jenoptik. I think you could live with them only giving you 1080p. However it will cost you 1M$.
This approach I linked to should be no more difficult than a DI to implement. We might just enjoy the end result.
The display can be brighter since the light engine does not have to be as focused on high contrast. Some contrast can be exchanged for more light output.
The simultaneous contrast can allow eye popping imagery.
You can get the black level you desire so much.
I wonder how high a resolution panel they can use in the spot their putting it, I imagine the image is fairly unfocused in that spot which is why their using lower resolution panels there.
sisaacs
Lets guess the resolutionl is of the same order as the number leds in their current display. Thus 1000-10000 pixels is a good guess as any. Too many pixels and you get too heavy processing requirements.
Lets guess the resolutionl is of the same order as the number leds in their current display. Thus 1000-10000 pixels is a good guess as any. Too many pixels and you get too heavy processing requirements.
This is old news. We've known about the possibility of using a fourth panel in a dual-modulation scheme for quite a few years now. Brightside uses the same basic principle in their flat panel designs.
Why the PJ manufacturers have not yet introduced a PJ with this tech is the real question.
Perhaps because of Brightside's patents?
Perhaps there are heat issues?
Perhaps there are alignment problems?
Who knows. But I for one would love to see this technology hit the market.
Mike
Why the PJ manufacturers have not yet introduced a PJ with this tech is the real question.
Perhaps because of Brightside's patents?
Perhaps there are heat issues?
Perhaps there are alignment problems?
Who knows. But I for one would love to see this technology hit the market.
Mike
Did anyone miss the part about low res monochrome LCD? No, well what were the bullet points? Inexpensive and transmissive. If there is an issue with LCD being to low res, then what is to keep them from using a better LCD if needed?
Sisaacs and Ohlson beat me to it. Was I on the phone that long?
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I don't think the implementation would be hard, but going through the phases at the end of the document might take some time. Like I said, this would be perfect for Canon or Cinetron. The smaller players who would like to be able to leap past the giants would benefit the most from this. Matter of fact, Cinetron might be the best one to look at this. SWChen are you listening. The Pearl has leapfrogged the Cinetron, so they may need something like this for added value. For DLP, Marantz could use this as a huge selling point for their higher priced pjs.
Ericglo
Sisaacs and Ohlson beat me to it. Was I on the phone that long?
Quote:
| Originally Posted by Ohlson Ericglo If someone was working on this for a front projector it would not have to be too far from market introduction. Could we see this in a product next year? |
Ericglo
The actual ANSI CR is inherently limited to a much lower number due to light diffusion within any projector's optical path.
Ron Jones
Ron Jones
Hmm so if we say 96x54 grid or something like that on a 1920x1080 projector, each light modulator is roughly a 20x20 pixel area, probably slightly more than that since I would imagine the picture isn't focused where they are putting the modulator.
I imagine that modulating an unfocused beam is beneficial since when you focus the beam the pattern diffuses making the grid blend better.
Anyhow a 20x20 pixel area is probably a 1" x 1" area for a 1920 projector on a 100" wide screen or so, I'm fairly convinced that's probably good enough resolution for nearly any scene except possibly a starfield, especially considering the edges are going to blend together.
I imagine that modulating an unfocused beam is beneficial since when you focus the beam the pattern diffuses making the grid blend better.
Anyhow a 20x20 pixel area is probably a 1" x 1" area for a 1920 projector on a 100" wide screen or so, I'm fairly convinced that's probably good enough resolution for nearly any scene except possibly a starfield, especially considering the edges are going to blend together.
Old news that felt fresh to me when looking at the pdf that I had previously not checked out.
The technology is maturing since they are selling a product based upon the concept.
There are many interesting aspects of this.
HDR aquisition
HDR adapted codecs
HDR projection displays
Previously they had an approach with a dlp projector illuminating a lcd monitor. Now I looked in the pdf and they lay out approaches for lcd, lcos and dlp HDR projectors. That felt new to me.
The technology is maturing since they are selling a product based upon the concept.
There are many interesting aspects of this.
HDR aquisition
HDR adapted codecs
HDR projection displays
Previously they had an approach with a dlp projector illuminating a lcd monitor. Now I looked in the pdf and they lay out approaches for lcd, lcos and dlp HDR projectors. That felt new to me.
Interesting that it's after the panels in the LCD and LCoS setups but before the panel in the DLP setup, wonder if one has an advantage over the other.
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Without further assumptions about the picture, yes. it's 'may not'. You can have pictures that will look the same and you sure can create others that won't. For example alternating white and black lines x pixels wide will look different if lines are smaller than the LCD elements. For normal films the difference is probably small to irrelevant in most cases. I hope someone implements this and we'll see. I wonder what they are waiting for. The principle has been known for years now.
| Originally Posted by Michael Grant You should change this to "may" not. The key is in the implementation. A number of folks on this forum have seen Brightside's standalone displays that use the same technology and have been blown away by the results---to the point that the displays may be too revealing for 8-bit video. |
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Agreed. Unfortunately this thread will probably fade into history along with the rest of hybrid technology threads that never materialized. Shame.
| Originally Posted by mhafner I wonder what they are waiting for. The principle has been known for years now. |
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