AVS Forum banner

Status
Not open for further replies.
1 - 20 of 33 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,339 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
This is my first pj and while I have only tried it out for about an hour or so (without doing any type of calibration and having it project onto a not-so-good painted white wall), I was amazed with how good it looked. Sure, it doesn't look as "3d" or sharp as my Pioneer Elite 53" 16x9 TV (a GREAT tv btw) but it looks darn good and I'll easily trade off the slight picture quality for the size. I was using a panny rp91 dvd player via component too and that has me interested in seeing this baby through vga.


My question is this...if an "entry level/cheap" pj looks this good, how good do the higher resolution and priced ones look? Is it drastic improvement or just the law of diminishing returns? So you pay 3x the rpice but only get say 10% improvement?


All I can say is I am glad I was finally able to get a pj, meaning I now have the room for it.


Oh and one more thing...the screendoor didn't seem to bother me. I expected it to be worse having read so much here about screendoor.



Rob
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,141 Posts
You really should look into using the VGA input for this projector....the component really does not do it justice.


You will notice the difference immediately.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,339 Posts
Discussion Starter · #3 ·
thanks for not answering my question.


BTW, the picture looked great wiht the rp91 via component. I highly doubt vga will look that much different. In fact, I am 100% sure of it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,723 Posts
Hey Rob ... onto the next toy are we? I know your pain ... I have it too and have the same AE100 coming in the mail next week.


It's merely another grand little experiment.


Can you not feed the DVD off one of the many computers that you have into the VGA input of the unit?


Now ... as good as you think this unit is, there are better and it's a bit more than a 10% gain. As you move up the ladder, you also start adding external scalers and processing capabilities that really do make a visible difference.


Case in point ... the Dreamvision DLP projector at $7500 versus a Sharp DLP at $11000. The DV is really really not very good. The Sharp, I can really get to like. Grainy image ... versus no grain.


Now as we go from the sharp to a $14000 Runco DLP with a $10K scaler ... now the difference is much more subtle ...


Regards
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,141 Posts
rlindo:


do not underestimate the power of VGA with this pj....there is simply NO comparison, despite what you think...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
162 Posts
I have been hearing this vga versus component so many times it is getting to be not so funny anymore. The following is all my opinion of course.


There is _not_ really a big difference between seeing a DVD via VGA htpc/iscan input and using a good progresive dvd player like the RP56 or the RP91 with a decent (and short) component cable. The biggest problems associated with the Component imput is that the AE is required to downscale from 525p to 480wide, this introduces some _very_ minor effects. Most people will not notice this downscaling at all for dvd watching since the AE actually does a fairly good job of it.


The other problem associated with using a dvd player like the RP56/91 either through component _or_ vga is your lack of control over colors and gamma. The only gamma correction the AE itself allows you to do is to change between normal, dynamic and cinema modes, IMO AE100 w/ RP56 through component or vga to cinema mode produces the best bang for your buck fp experiences out there for DVD watching.


So why has the component imput been so vilified? well for one if you connect via vga and radeon htpc you will get a better image than the RP56 thanks to the ability to tweak the color and gamma settings. If you have a dvd player that allows you to tweak these values this benefit will be much reduced.


The real problem with the componet input comes when you use it with either HD sources or interlaced / bad progresive dvd sources. Feeding the AE an interlaced signal is just wrong, and many so called progressive players are just not good enough. Don't let the price of the RP56 fool you, it puts out a better picture than many 1000$ plus progressive players of not too long ago. HD sources is a different story since not many people in the US have HD source to feed via component to AE. IF you do then you will definitelly see why the component imput is a bad idea, there is a _lot_ of scaling that the AE does not handle gracefully.


The AE has one very important problem, it has very low contrast. What this translates into is _unacceptable_ blacks. I really can't give you an idea of how important blacks are for a projector, suffice it to say people are willing to pay ten times the price of the AE for better blacks and no screendoor. First time projector owners will not even know what I am talking about and will think the AE blacks are just fine.


To find out how much better a projector can get take a look at an isf calibrated hd ready RPTV, this will be a good upper limit to the quality of a pj. Only you can judge how much you are willing to pay to go from the pq of the AE to that.


If you want to go with a one chip DLPs then you can get much better blacks, less screendoor and more resolution for 2x the price of the AE, you will also have artifacts (that you may or may not notice), worse colors and you will have to have better light control of your room. A lot of people find this a good tradeoff. You can also get better blacks on the AE by using a filter or greyscreen. With the filter you will have some problems with your colors, especially on flesh tones wich are one of the AEs biggest strenghts. The problem with Grey screens is that the AE has ridiculously low contrast and what you take away may be worth more than what you get, again this is a personal preference.


The one tweak that I am looking into purchasing is an ISCO II lense, I have very high hopes for this and I am looking for any information.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
184 Posts
"The biggest problems associated with the Component imput is that the AE is required to downscale from 525p to 480wide".


There is really no downscaling involved. 525i is composed of 480i picture elements + 45 which is attributed to horizontal and or vertical synch signals. Therefore they are one and the same 525i and 480i.


IMHO There is quite a difference in quality of VGA signal (LI ON's Specs)compared to panny rp56 progressive signal. However I choose to use rp56 route since I am too cheap to buy myself an HTPC. I do have a laptop capable of doing the 856 x 480 via powerstrip but alas I do not get the dolby 5.1 or DTS audio signal. That is why I have to content myself with rp56 with no transcoder. Correct me if I am wrong.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
162 Posts
hgo, that is interesting I will look into whether there is downcoversion or not. In any case it the input is showing 520p on dvd source through component instead of Wide480 which is the AE ideal. I assumed this would have to be converted to the native resolution of the AE.


Could you give me any examples of sources where you can see difference between the component and vga inputs? I have spent quite some time comparing the two and if there are differences they are not jumping out at me.


I have a radeon 7500 htpc pixel perfect 1 to 1 mapping and well calibrated, and I am comparing to a RP56 connected via a good component cable.

thank you.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,378 Posts
To me the difference between RP56 component vs VGA is significant. The reality is that the AE100 is doing scaling to a 525P component signal.


It is very easy to see when one has a transcoder. Slap in Phantom Menace DVD to Chapter 1 and watch the receding STAR WARS yellow setup text. With RP56 component, scaling artifacts are not only visible but distracting (to me). Slap in the transcoder between the RP56 and AE100 and the artifacts disappear.


The RGB input completely bypasses the AE100's internal processing... which is for the better. IMO, the RP56+Transcoder gives you 98% of the HTPC PQ with 2% of the setup hassles.


- JP
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
162 Posts
JPinto,

that sounds like a good one, I will take a look at it (i will have to rent episode one *sigh*) That is actually exactly the kind of minor effect that I would expect from downscaling.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,378 Posts
Quote:
Originally posted by EdgyLyric
JPinto,

that sounds like a good one, I will take a look at it (i will have to rent episode one *sigh*) That is actually exactly the kind of minor effect that I would expect from downscaling.
Tip--- buy it! :D


I can see a general softness in the component signal vs sharper image on VGA. It is noticable on animated movies like Toy Story or Shrek. ANimated movies have a sharpness that gets ruined by the component signal.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
184 Posts
Correct me if I am wrong again.


Perhaps what you are seeing are not scaling artifacts but they must be from internal processing artifacts attributed to the lousy video processing incorporated into the AE100.


Only DVI connection does not require any conversion whatsoever except perhaps data decryption.

VGA by nature are analog and therefore will require another conversion to digital form in order for it to be able to drive the display pixel by pixel and thus the superior image.


This is an excerpt from http://www.commspecial.com/deuceguide.htm#interlaced


"A TV signal has a set number of horizontal lines. In NTSC, that number is 525; in PAL and SECAM, it’s 625. However, not all of these lines are visible. In fact, only 480 lines in NTSC and 576 lines in PAL and SECAM are seen by the TV viewer; the remainder are called blanking lines, which contain no picture information and are hidden at the top and bottom of the screen. "


And therefore my contention that scaling is not being done either from 480 to 525 or vice versa.


Again this are facts culled from http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...threadid=31225


It is good reading for all the closet geeks like me.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,378 Posts
Besides Line doubling and scaling, what other processing is there?


If I feed the AE100 a DVD 480P progressive signal via component, then there is no need for line doubling. The AE100 reports the signal as 525P, not 480P. It must be doing something, so I assume it's scaling.


The WIDE480 source is sharper and cleaner than the 525P source.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
393 Posts
Does anyone know if the VB50 will transcode a component signal via breakout cable? I'm trying to decide if I need to get the AA transcoder AND VB50 for an AE100 I'm about to purchase.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,378 Posts
You DO NOT need the AA and VB50. The AA is good for component to RGB conversion of progressive sources (like PS DVD and XBOX). The VB50 is for line doubling composite, S-Video and cable sources. You don't NEED both together unless you need both types of signals handled. The VB50 has no component inputs.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
15 Posts
What is an "AA" and where can I get one of these? I have the AE-100 and a Toshiba progressive scan DVD currently hooked up with component cables. I might try this "AA" thing depending on how much this experiment would cost. I don't want to go the computer route. Thanks for any info, people.


Paul
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,378 Posts
Audio AUthority 09A62 component to RGB transcoder: $179


Search on copperbox.com
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
15 Posts
Thanks for the info JP. I'll look into it. Does it really make that much of an improvement? I thought my picture was great as-is. Projecting on to Da-Lite model C matte white 120" diagonal.
 
1 - 20 of 33 Posts
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top