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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
80hz is the recommended x-over set by THX for a THX cert. system including the speakers. Alot of folks including good electroics outfits (Audysey for one) and gurus in the HT community use this as gospel as I have done forever.


After a year with my Axiom M80's I was pleased with the sound but felt something was missing in the mid bass section, I was having to really crank the volume to get the full sound that I was looking for, this included movies and music. This presented a problem as my quite powerfull amp(200wpc Mps-1) would shut down into protection mode with some very dynamic soundtracks, i.e. Master&Commander...obviously not a good thing and was not happy with this aspect of the amps capabilities or the Axioms for demanding so much juice.


I decided to try different x-over settings on the pre/pro..mains set to 60hz...M80;s rated to 35hz. Center to 70hz..RC64 rated to 61hz. In no word of a lie, the difference in SQ is literally night and day. Music is now full from the bottom up without that huge hole in mid bass I was having. Movies are to die for, I rewatched Bourne Ultimatum on HD DVD last night, volume was at -19db and is calibrated to ref levels with spl meter. Before adjusting the XO the sound was pretty good but now..OMG..the car chase scene was just shocking. Before I was setting anywhere from -17 to -13 for movies, since I have adjusted the XO I have not had one shutdown and I play it loud and the volume levels are much lower for better effect.


Music, Steely Dan 2 Against Nature..always sounded good but now it is simply jaw dropping, the bass guitar and drums are incredible, its hard to explain the difference..its simply MUCH smoother, fuller and lucious sounding without any holes in that mid bass area.


All systems and rooms are obviously different, perhaps my Sub doesn't do bass over 60hz very well....all I know is it worked for me....I dare you to try different XO settings. I believe the norm is to set your XO one octave higher than your speaker is rated to..i.e.,,speaker rated at 33hz...50-60hz would be the XO setting...key word..experiment.


Maybe I just got lucky but would appreciate your feedback.


Cheers.
 

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I'm sure many here have had similar experiences.


I have experimented myself a good bit since getting the HK635 and its room EQ. Woofer sizes, specs, Sub capabilities, etc. are all integral in finding the sweet spot in response but nothing more so to me than proper Room EQ. Every room presents it's own set of issues. The proof is usually in the pudding and that for me is simply toggling the EQ on and off with any particular System Set Up including X-over selection.


The HK's go largely by 20's so there is less fine adjustment from 40Hz to 200Hz than with some others brands. As my Wharfedale towers have fairly decent Bass response, the option to run full range has always been tempting. But the solution with my room issues is not one particular setting however. I get very similar SQ, both good and bad, with different setups and X-overs...so for me it basically comes down to eliminating unnecessary Bass concussiveness and more particularly, localized resonance.


Depending on setup choices, say Large + Sub (LFE) vs. Large + Sub (L-R + LFE), I adjust the Bass level in receiver to achieve SQ virtually indistinguishable one from another. Same with any useful Small setting with appropriate X-over (for me 40Hz - 60Hz seems best). Without EQ though this would be very difficult if not impossible in my room which cannot be more specifically treated due to space considerations other than the furnishings I have in place. So in my experience, the biggest and best tool to use to hear the effectiveness of any particular setup choice in room is to toggle the EQ on/off. What an 'ear' opener! It may be difficult to separate what is Room and what is equipment related but at least trial and error can and usually does eliminate what is bad.


Cheers back at ya.
 

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Despite what most here will argue, I have always felt that using a sub at 80hz was way to high for large capable speakers. I have tended to cross over the subwoofer at 40-60hz depending on the system for years with great results. This does not apply to satellite speaker systems however very well.
 

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I have experimented with this as well and my system sounds better at lower crossover points but I was able to make it shut down my receiver pretty quick. Crossed at 80 it was no problem. I do not have amp at this point. I probably will get one when I finally upgrade the speakers I have. I'll play with the xover more at that point.
 

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You've discovered the joy of experimentation.


The speakers and room are all part of one system. Sometimes by moving a speaker or sub an inch or two one way or the other can have very dramatic results in the SQ...often changing where standing waves are.


Sometimes changing the crossover can produce very surprising results, as you have found. It is good information to pass along to others.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by ClarkeBar /forum/post/12906557


I'm sure many here have had similar experiences.


I have experimented myself a good bit since getting the HK635 and its room EQ. Woofer sizes, specs, Sub capabilities, etc. are all integral in finding the sweet spot in response but nothing more so to me than proper Room EQ. Every room presents it's own set of issues. The proof is usually in the pudding and that for me is simply toggling the EQ on and off with any particular System Set Up including X-over selection.


The HK's go largely by 20's so there is less fine adjustment from 40Hz to 200Hz than with some others brands. As my Wharfedale towers have fairly decent Bass response, the option to run full range has always been tempting. But the solution with my room issues is not one particular setting however. I get very similar SQ, both good and bad, with different setups and X-overs...so for me it basically comes down to eliminating unnecessary Bass concussiveness and more particularly, localized resonance.


Depending on setup choices, say Large + Sub (LFE) vs. Large + Sub (L-R + LFE), I adjust the Bass level in receiver to achieve SQ virtually indistinguishable one from another. Same with any useful Small setting with appropriate X-over (for me 40Hz - 60Hz seems best). Without EQ though this would be very difficult if not impossible in my room which cannot be more specifically treated due to space considerations other than the furnishings I have in place. So in my experience, the biggest and best tool to use to hear the effectiveness of any particular setup choice in room is to toggle the EQ on/off. What an 'ear' opener! It may be difficult to separate what is Room and what is equipment related but at least trial and error can and usually does eliminate what is bad.


Cheers back at ya.

Heyya Clarke, MY Emo DMC-1 doesn't have an EQ, just speaker setup stuff. I also have a big Yammy RX-v2500 and its YPAO never did much for me, i was constantly fiddling with it but never got the results that I was looking for, perhaps it was because the AVR kept selecting 80HZ as XO..
...see, thats what I mean, LOL


Thanks for the input guys and gals, keep it coming.
 

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Hey Jet,


I agree EQ experiences are all over the map and tend to relate this to room differences/demands and listening history/preferences. I know some folks detest frequency tweaking no matter the reason.


Also, I understand why you might like the Bass response from the towers better now as IMO full range speakers generally seem to perform better this way...as long as there is sufficient power. Which leads me to my question:


If you were getting the MPS-1 to shut down with those 4 Ohm Axioms and an 80Hz X-over...why on earth do you think a lower X-over eliminated the problem? Not questioning your post...just trying to figure out the result. If anything, dropping the X-over should likely produce more shutdowns.


Also, I can't be sure from your post...are you running 5.1 with four 80's or 3.1 with two 80's...or something else?
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Hey Clarke, I am running L/R M80's with a Klipsch RC64 center and Mirage OM260 as surrounds and a Paradigm PW2200. I know, a real mish mash but it sounds great.


I think the reason I'm not getting any shutsowns is that before the XO tweak, I was cranking the hell out of the system trying to obtain the sound that I wanted which was more mid bass, this worked to some extent but as soon as a huge dynamic peak happened, ala Master&Commander cannon fire, the MPS-1 would sense a soft clip and boom, boom out go the lights
. I'm sure I can get the MPS-1 to shutdown If I want to but I now get the sound that I wanted with lots of volume( I like it loud) and no issues. Thats how I figure it anyway.
 

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Thanks...now that makes sense. Slightly lowered volume levels but with better/fuller Bass response overall from the towers and CC due to lowered X-over changes.


You can understand why I was puzzled...that amp is no slacker. Amazing what a few extra dB will cause in a system.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Exactly, even at the high volumes I was running the system at before the lowered XO it wasn't always shutting down so it was just a few small changes making the amp respond in a more friendly way, I have heard lots of stories of amps shutting down and just wanted to help folks like me who always thought that 80hz was the magical bullet.


BTW, those Wharfedales are really nice, are they newer or older? I have a pair of Wharfedale Mach V in mint condition in the basment and sound awesome after 25 years!!
 

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What about the controls on the back of the sub? Low-pass filter set too high or subwoofer out of phase with the mains can both give you a big hole at certain bass frequencies.


My PW-2100 plays fine with a 100Hz crossover, but if the phase is set wrong there's a huge dip near that frequency.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by JetJockey1 /forum/post/12917500


Exactly, even at the high volumes I was running the system at before the lowered XO it wasn't always shutting down so it was just a few small changes making the amp respond in a more friendly way, I have heard lots of stories of amps shutting down and just wanted to help folks like me who always thought that 80hz was the magical bullet.


BTW, those Wharfedales are really nice, are they newer or older? I have a pair of Wharfedale Mach V in mint condition in the basment and sound awesome after 25 years!!

Thanks for looking.



Vintage Wharfedales...very nice!!!!


And no, mine are not old. The Emerald 97's are Mark IV's. Picked 'em up on Ubid back in 2002 when you could actually bid on almost everything. Got one pair and fell instantly 'in love', so much so I grabbed another pair the following month. Embarrassed to tell you how little I paid for them. Best Audio purchase I ever made and likely ever will. Tracked down the matching CC shortly afterwards. Have run 4 towers on and off for a while but space is just as tight in the rear as the front so I shuttle back and forth between 3.1 and 5.1 depending on mood and new furniture. I guess I should say 'Thanks' to U-Haul for climate controlled storage.



Like I always tell people...'sure, there's better out there...but I know when I listen to my speakers I don't need it'.


Very glad you fixed your sound issues with experimentation. You know even without adding in EQ, there is so much flexibility with Bass Mgmt. nowadays, I guess a person would have to have a really bad room not to find some fix.


Cheers.
 
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