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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Why does some songs have Group delay but not other. Almost all music sound good on music. Suddenly there is a song with a bassdrum with "slower" bass.


How come I dont experince this on all music?!

Is Group Delay something that can be a "problem" already in the mixing stage? Can the room itself induce Group Delay? Sorry for all the questions, but I have to know...



I put my subwoofer just a little bit further from the front speaker and dont hear "slow" bass as much as I did before. That, and a increase of distance setting of the subwoofer made the sound "tighter".
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by surap /forum/post/15509761


Why does some songs have Group delay but not other. Almost all music sound good on music. Suddenly there is a song with a bassdrum with "slower" bass.


How come I dont experince this on all music?!

Is Group Delay something that can be a "problem" already in the mixing stage? Can the room itself induce Group Delay? Sorry for all the questions, but I have to know...



I put my subwoofer just a little bit further from the front speaker and dont hear "slow" bass as much as I did before. That, and a increase of distance setting of the subwoofer made the sound "tighter".


Why don't you place the subwoofer nearfield, that is, within 4 feet of your listening position, and see if you hear more of a difference.


Sometimes nearfield placement works out very well.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by spyboy /forum/post/15514874


Why don't you place the subwoofer nearfield, that is, within 4 feet of your listening position, and see if you hear more of a difference.


Sometimes nearfield placement works out very well.

I´ll test that.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by surap /forum/post/15509761


Why does some songs have Group delay but not other. Almost all music sound good on music. Suddenly there is a song with a bassdrum with "slower" bass.


How come I dont experince this on all music?!

Is Group Delay something that can be a "problem" already in the mixing stage? Can the room itself induce Group Delay? Sorry for all the questions, but I have to know...



I put my subwoofer just a little bit further from the front speaker and dont hear "slow" bass as much as I did before. That, and a increase of distance setting of the subwoofer made the sound "tighter".

You are not talking about group delay. Group delay is basically the rate of change of the phase response of a loudspeaker.


You are talking about just the basic time arrivals of the signals.


DIfferent people mix down on different systems. Possibly the difference in these systems is what you are hearing.


I am really confused on your "solution" You say you moved your sub closer to you (decreasing the time of flight of the signal) and then you increased that distance with the processor setting.


Doesn't that put you back to square one?



I suggest that the difference you heard was simply due to room placement and room modes of the sub in relation to your seating position, not any sort of timing difference.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivan Beaver /forum/post/15516372


You are not talking about group delay. Group delay is basically the rate of change of the phase response of a loudspeaker.


You are talking about just the basic time arrivals of the signals.


DIfferent people mix down on different systems. Possibly the difference in these systems is what you are hearing.


I am really confused on your "solution" You say you moved your sub closer to you (decreasing the time of flight of the signal) and then you increased that distance with the processor setting.


Doesn't that put you back to square one?



I suggest that the difference you heard was simply due to room placement and room modes of the sub in relation to your seating position, not any sort of timing difference.

Ooops...should have told you that the sub(RELQ100E) is connencted directly on the subwoofers with an Speakon contact. In "stereo-mode", my subwoofer is set to "no subwoofer".


So I guess the signals to my subwoofer are "faster" then if I had used the bass managment with stereo?


However that didnt answer your question about my settings...



In reality, my subwoofer is physically 20cm(about 15" ?..) further than my fronts.


The SW settings are 3.30cm and the fronts are 3.20cm. I dont know how to re-calculate so I give centimeters instead.


But my original question should have been:


Can the room "induce" group delay?

Or is Group Delay inherently to a subwoofer and not the room.


"You are talking about just the basic time arrivals of the signals."


On some Techno, I experience this with the Bassdrum. I seems that the lower bass comes later, if you understand. Is my room doing this?


Regard

Robert
 

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Yes a room can make a sub sound slower with some music more than others. Some of what your hearing might be some compression in the music, or it could also be the way it was mixed. There are a ton of factors that effect how it is going to sound and the room will be to your taste for music.


If you watch the new Bangkok Dangerous movie there are allot of scenes with music and the bass if mixed with some extra timing in some scenes more than others. It is really slow out in the hallway of a club in one scene while the bass is echoing around the hallway for example.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveMo /forum/post/15526709


Yes a room can make a sub sound slower with some music more than others. Some of what your hearing might be some compression in the music, or it could also be the way it was mixed. There are a ton of factors that effect how it is going to sound and the room will be to your taste for music.


If you watch the new Bangkok Dangerous movie there are allot of scenes with music and the bass if mixed with some extra timing in some scenes more than others. It is really slow out in the hallway of a club in one scene while the bass is echoing around the hallway for example.

Compression on radio really hurts the music. I know that compression is popular as a Style of music.


It is annoying to hear compression in a song. It sometimes feels as the air is sucked out from the ear.


If you say the room can create group delay, it must be what I hear. If I had serious problem with GD in my sub, then I should hear it all the time, right?
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by surap /forum/post/15527001


If you say the room can create group delay, it must be what I hear.

As pointed out, you are not talking about group delay. I doubt YOU can hear group delay. You'd have to be very familiar with subwoofers and measuring their group delay to be able to say "Aha! I hear group delay!". What you perceive and are trying to describe as a "delay" in the bass is not group delay. It sounds like you are hearing what people sometimes describe as "slow" (as opposed to "fast") subwoofer performance. And there can be several things that can cause this.


Manipulating your distance setting is, basically, only going to affect your sub's phasing, which may be why you noticed a difference in the sound. And moving the sub, even only a few inches, can drastically affect its in-room FR. Have you calibrated your subwoofer properly? What have you done to assure or achieve the flattest FR possible for your setup? What have you done to properly adjust your sub's phase?


What are your speakers? And sub? Receiver? What settings are you using in the receiver; speaker sizes, crossover, etc.? Does your receiver have some sort of auto-calibration/EQ capability?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivan Beaver /forum/post/15516372


I am really confused on your "solution" You say you moved your sub closer to you (decreasing the time of flight of the signal) and then you increased that distance with the processor setting.


Doesn't that put you back to square one?

No, it doesn't work that way. And even if it did, increasing the subwoofer distance is going to make it fire sooner relative to his speakers. But you are correct that the (il)logic behind his solution is flawed.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by surap /forum/post/15527001


Compression on radio really hurts the music. I know that compression is popular as a Style of music.


It is annoying to hear compression in a song. It sometimes feels as the air is sucked out from the ear.


If you say the room can create group delay, it must be what I hear. If I had serious problem with GD in my sub, then I should hear it all the time, right?

Yes it is easy to hear when there are delay problems related to setup. Try placing a speaker near a wall, then away from a wall and you can hear the difference between the two very well.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by sivadselim /forum/post/15527085


As pointed out, you are not talking about group delay. I doubt YOU can hear group delay. You'd have to be very familiar with subwoofers and measuring their group delay to be able to say "Aha! I hear group delay!". What you perceive and are trying to describe as a "delay" in the bass is not group delay. It sounds like you are hearing what people sometimes describe as "slow" (as opposed to "fast") subwoofer performance. And there can be several things that can cause this.


Manipulating your distance setting is, basically, only going to affect your sub's phasing, which may be why you noticed a difference in the sound. And moving the sub, even only a few inches, can drastically affect its in-room FR. Have you calibrated your subwoofer properly? What have you done to assure or achieve the flattest FR possible for your setup? What have you done to properly adjust your sub's phase?


What are your speakers? And sub? Receiver? What settings are you using in the receiver; speaker sizes, crossover, etc.? Does your receiver have some sort of auto-calibration/EQ capability?



No, it doesn't work that way. And even if it did, increasing the subwoofer distance is going to make it fire sooner relative to his speakers. But you are correct that the (il)logic behind his solution is flawed.

I have a Denon 4806. The speakers(old Atlantic Tech-speakers)

is set to "small" and I split the signal at 80Hz. I think the phase is set to "0" on the sub.


I have done some "soundproofing" with some "super chunks" in the corners, from floor to ceiling. It made the sound from the sub a lot tighter. But I think I have some problem in the 60Hz area.


With the phase on the sub, I have tried to get the smoothest transition from the crossover setting. I think it sounds good. There is no apparent "dip" around 80Hz, not that I can hear easily, anyway.


All this is intentionally done without the automated EQ. I want to learn how to achieve a great sound before I learn how to make the process automated.


This include some crude methods, as physically move the sub to hear what happens. It is not that I dont trust my recievers Automated setup, It is just to learn by ear.


The issue with Group Delay is an idea that came from reading about "timing" in music. Have I not read about this, I had incorrectly used the term "slow" bass. My bass is not "slow". The whole setup sounds as if there where big speakers playing. Of course, my front speakers are not big(that will change as soon I get my JTR 8s), so I cant complaine over the sound. It will never "sound" as fullrange, but "almost".


It can go days before I hear something that resembles a "slow" bass. But when it does, I dont know what to blame. If it was the distance setting, I should hear it more often, right? I dont know...



I have a theory that some music have a bass-rythm that create an echo. The echo could be the problems I have with certain frequencies....(60Hz)....?


Robert
 
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